"Is everything just a logical and rational reality and devoid of spirit?"

#21

[quote=dennisknapp]So, you are reasoning about phenomena and noumena to come to your conclusions about phenomena and noumena. Therefore, you are proving the need for reason and logic in regards to faith.
[/quote]

Reason is the foundation we have to go on. But, it’s only the beginning. We then frame everything in. We proceed to put up walls and install windows to see out of. There’s nothing wrong with reason. There’s everything wrong with stopping there and assuming the whole house consists of the foundation only - with what is concrete and can be experienced by our faculties.

Reason gets you on the path to understanding. But the path of understanding involves concepts, ideas and unexplainable occurrences. We use reason and concepts to understand the things around us and the things we experience. That doesn’t mean that those reasonings and concepts are the truth. It means they help us understand the truth. Reasoning is a tool that we humans have to use.

We use comparisons everyday. I could say my neighbor’s house is a pretty blue, like the feathers of a Bluejay. Is my neighbor’s house and a Bluejay the same reality? No. But, we use analogies and comparisons in order to convey truth. I’m saying that we use phrases such as “God’s hands grabbed me by the scruff of the neck and I felt afraid”. Now, does God have hands? No. This would be using anthropomorphic terms to relay a meaning.

Just some thoughts.

Peace…

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#22

[quote=ahimsaman72]Reason is the foundation we have to go on. But, it’s only the beginning. We then frame everything in. We proceed to put up walls and install windows to see out of. There’s nothing wrong with reason. There’s everything wrong with stopping there and assuming the whole house consists of the foundation only - with what is concrete and can be experienced by our faculties.

Reason gets you on the path to understanding. But the path of understanding involves concepts, ideas and unexplainable occurrences. We use reason and concepts to understand the things around us and the things we experience. That doesn’t mean that those reasonings and concepts are the truth. It means they help us understand the truth. Reasoning is a tool that we humans have to use.

We use comparisons everyday. I could say my neighbor’s house is a pretty blue, like the feathers of a Bluejay. Is my neighbor’s house and a Bluejay the same reality? No. But, we use analogies and comparisons in order to convey truth. I’m saying that we use phrases such as “God’s hands grabbed me by the scruff of the neck and I felt afraid”. Now, does God have hands? No. This would be using anthropomorphic terms to relay a meaning.

Just some thoughts.

Peace…
[/quote]

I totally agree. My only problem would be when we speak of contradictory things. Contradictory things cannot actually exist anywhere. It is the contradictory things that are brought to light using reason and logic.

Peace

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#23

[quote=dennisknapp]I totally agree. My only problem would be when we speak of contradictory things. Contradictory things cannot actually exist anywhere. It is the contradictory things that are brought to light using reason and logic.

Peace
[/quote]

The question then remains - what is the true understanding? I freely admit things seem contradictory. When we create dogma there will undoubtedly be conflicts. Because, we are saying “This is true” and “This is not true”. We could have things reversed, however.

Take an event in the world that we experience. Let’s say it is a car accident. There are 3 witnesses, X, Y and Z. I guarantee you all three will see the accident in a different way. Each will report how they saw the accident play out. Unfortunately for the policeman, he has to figure out based on physical evidence, logic, reason and the witness testimony to come to a decision of who is responsible.

I posit that we see life in different ways. We see things through our five senses. We notice a snake in the grass. We know by experience that snakes can bite. We run away (I would :slight_smile: ). Another person comes along the path and sees the same snake, only he doesn’t run away. He says to himself - “Great! I’ll take him home with me, put him in my barn and he’ll chase away the rats.” I see the snake as a venomous, harmful creature. John Doe thinks he’s worth taking home to momma.

The disagreement comes when you and I begin to define objects of our consciousness. We create dogmas - attach ourselves to those dogmas and close our minds to contradictions. When contradictions arise, we shy them away and tell ourselves we are right all along and no need to worry about those contradictions. We determine God can’t be “that”, He must be “this”. So, our minds are closed.

Peace…

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#24

[quote=ahimsaman72]Correct, not everything is logical and rational. Jesus Christ raising from the dead is not rational. Mary, a virgin, giving birth to Christ is not logical or rational. The incarnation of God to flesh in the person of Jesus Christ is not logical or rational.

I would define logical and rational as something we can test, see, validate or reason in some way. The above instances fall out of that realm as I see them. I brought these points up on another thread because I see logic and reason to be the phenomenal aspect of reality with spirit and unknowables in the noumenal realm. I believe there are two realms of existence.

We use characteristics of phenomena to describe noumena. Which is okay, as long as we realize that the two are different realities. If we are defining dogma, then we have a problem. If we can’t separate the two, we end up not understanding either.

Hope that makes sense. I’m with you Exporter :wink: .

Peace…
[/quote]


Yes, ahimsaman72…you and I are saying the same thing. Yessir. I had tried to say we had to separate the two but I did a poor job. :yup:

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#25

[quote=dennisknapp]I totally agree. My only problem would be when we speak of contradictory things. Contradictory things cannot actually exist anywhere. It is the contradictory things that are brought to light using reason and logic.

Peace
[/quote]

Let’s say John Doe says he felt the presence of a Divine Being last night while half asleep. John is a Christian. He says it must have been Christ. James Doe says he felt the presence of a Divine Being last night as well - at the same time. James, however, is a Muslim. He would claim that presence he felt was Allah.

Now, they are saying contradictory things - it seems. One says it is Jesus Christ and the other says it was Allah that he experienced. Each had valid experiences and perceived those experiences to be “this” and not “that”. The objective truth is hard to come by.

Peace…

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#26

[quote=ahimsaman72]Let’s say John Doe says he felt the presence of a Divine Being last night while half asleep. John is a Christian. He says it must have been Christ. James Doe says he felt the presence of a Divine Being last night as well - at the same time. James, however, is a Muslim. He would claim that presence he felt was Allah.

Now, they are saying contradictory things - it seems. One says it is Jesus Christ and the other says it was Allah that he experienced. Each had valid experiences and perceived those experiences to be “this” and not “that”. The objective truth is hard to come by.

Peace…
[/quote]

Contradictory things do not exist. Allah and Jesus cannot exist at the same time and in the same sense, for they contradict each other. Either Jesus is God or Allah is, they both cannot be at the same time and in the same sense.

While both the Muslim and Christian may have had an “experience,” the objectivity of that experience is always in question, but what we can know is that one may have had a true experience while other did not.

Peace

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#27

Excellent discusion.

Dennis, I agree that actual contradictions do not exist. I think that your example plays into ahimsaman72’s concept. ahimsaman72 would say (please correct me if wrong and accept my appology) that it is possible that they both experienced the presence of a devine being. One has come to know this diety as Allah while the other as Jesus. He might also say that if they were to analysize the situation enough (with open minds) they would eventually destroy the aparent contradiction and discover the truth of who it is that visited both. The apparent contradiction only exists when both are closed minded and will not search for the solution.

While I believe that contradictions don’t truely exist and I believe that our one true God can and does present himself to Catholic, Protestant and Muslim.

Additionally, I do not believe that truth (and therefor God) can be found from logic and reason. We are not capable of this. Our logic and reason become our own enimy. I am an engineer (did you guess by the spelling?) It is very hard for me to remember this. St. Augustine searched for God and truth for a long time and realised that it only led him to himself. GK Chesterton said: “You can only find truth with logic if you have already found truth without it.”

Peace
Jim

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#28

Also,

Here is my example of an apparent contradiction that is not a contradiction.
The Holy Trinity. Three persons, one God.
The only reason it appears to be a contradiciton is that we cannot grasp the idea thru logic. It is beyond human comprehension.
Also, this seems to be one of the major reasons why Muslims consider Christians in error. They cannot accept the contradiction and they know there is only one God. Another contradiction that Muslims (and Jews) have trouble with, is that this God is also a man.

Peace
Jim

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#29

[quote=dennisknapp]Contradictory things do not exist. Allah and Jesus cannot exist at the same time and in the same sense, for they contradict each other. Either Jesus is God or Allah is, they both cannot be at the same time and in the same sense.

While both the Muslim and Christian may have had an “experience,” the objectivity of that experience is always in question, but what we can know is that one may have had a true experience while other did not.

Peace
[/quote]

The experience was the same - not different. The difference is that the Muslim lableled that Divine Being as Allah, while the Christian labeled that Divine Being as Jesus Christ. We use labels to point to the truth. The labels aren’t the truth - they are only pointers.

The question still remains - was it Allah or was it Jesus? Was it neither? The objective truth is there. I don’t deny objective, absolute, ultimate truth. I deny the absolute knowledge available to know the absolute absolutely absolutely every time in every sense and in every experience.

Peace…

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#30

[quote=dennisknapp]Contradictory things do not exist. Allah and Jesus cannot exist at the same time and in the same sense, for they contradict each other. Either Jesus is God or Allah is, they both cannot be at the same time and in the same sense.

While both the Muslim and Christian may have had an “experience,” the objectivity of that experience is always in question, but what we can know is that one may have had a true experience while other did not.

Peace
[/quote]

The experience was the same - not different. The difference is that the Muslim lableled that Divine Being as Allah, while the Christian labeled that Divine Being as Jesus Christ. We use labels to point to the truth. The labels aren’t the truth - they are only pointers.

The question still remains - was it Allah or was it Jesus? Was it neither? The objective truth is there. I don’t deny objective, absolute, ultimate truth. I deny the absolute knowledge available to know the absolute absolutely, absolutely every time in every sense and in every experience.

Peace…

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#31

[quote=JamesD]Excellent discusion.

Dennis, I agree that actual contradictions do not exist. I think that your example plays into ahimsaman72’s concept. ahimsaman72 would say (please correct me if wrong and accept my appology) that it is possible that they both experienced the presence of a devine being. One has come to know this diety as Allah while the other as Jesus. He might also say that if they were to analysize the situation enough (with open minds) they would eventually destroy the aparent contradiction and discover the truth of who it is that visited both. The apparent contradiction only exists when both are closed minded and will not search for the solution.

While I believe that contradictions don’t truely exist and I believe that our one true God can and does present himself to Catholic, Protestant and Muslim.

Additionally, I do not believe that truth (and therefor God) can be found from logic and reason. We are not capable of this. Our logic and reason become our own enimy. I am an engineer (did you guess by the spelling?) It is very hard for me to remember this. St. Augustine searched for God and truth for a long time and realised that it only led him to himself. GK Chesterton said: “You can only find truth with logic if you have already found truth without it.”

Peace
Jim
[/quote]

Jim,

You are exactly right in what I am saying. I agree with your understanding. We label things because that’s what we as humans do. Something comes into our focus and we label it something.

Let’s say we are sitting in a garden on a bench. We are just sitting there enjoying the beauty around us. While looking upon a flower, our eyes glimpse something moving on the ground near us. A snake slithers into view. Now, the mind goes to work. The eyes have seen an object. The mind naturally labels that object from experience and/or knowledge as a snake. Then comes our feelings and perceptions. We feel afraid. Our perception is that the snake will hurt us. Our mind then tells our bodies to get the heck out of there!!!

You are absolutely right in saying that the contradiction can be solved. There appears to many contradictions in the Bible. But, many can be solved if we had more information or simply understood them in a different light. Contradictions come about because of dualistic thought. Open-mindedness to the truth is the key that unlocks the door to understanding the objective truth.

Thank you for your valuable insight.

Peace…

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#32

[quote=JamesD]Also,

Here is my example of an apparent contradiction that is not a contradiction.
The Holy Trinity. Three persons, one God.
The only reason it appears to be a contradiciton is that we cannot grasp the idea thru logic. It is beyond human comprehension.
Also, this seems to be one of the major reasons why Muslims consider Christians in error. They cannot accept the contradiction and they know there is only one God. Another contradiction that Muslims (and Jews) have trouble with, is that this God is also a man.

Peace
Jim
[/quote]

This is very true. The Trinity could be dislodged through using the law of non-contradiction (in my estimation). No one can fully understand the concept of the Trinity. We accept it as fact regardless of what our logic and reasoning tell us.

You’re exactly right about the Muslims and Jews. Because they hold that God must be “this” and not “that” they reject Christ and His message. They see contradictions from their understanding of God and their sacred writings, where Christians see those same writings fulfilled before their very eyes.

Peace…

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#33

[quote=ahimsaman72]The experience was the same - not different. The difference is that the Muslim lableled that Divine Being as Allah, while the Christian labeled that Divine Being as Jesus Christ. We use labels to point to the truth. The labels aren’t the truth - they are only pointers.

The question still remains - was it Allah or was it Jesus? Was it neither? The objective truth is there. I don’t deny objective, absolute, ultimate truth. I deny the absolute knowledge available to know the absolute absolutely absolutely every time in every sense and in every experience.

Peace…
[/quote]

This is all that I am saying. I am not saying that we can know if it was Allah or Christ. What I am saying is that it cannot be both Allah and Christ.

Peace

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#34

[quote=ahimsaman72]This is very true. The Trinity could be dislodged through using the law of non-contradiction (in my estimation). No one can fully understand the concept of the Trinity. We accept it as fact regardless of what our logic and reasoning tell us.

You’re exactly right about the Muslims and Jews. Because they hold that God must be “this” and not “that” they reject Christ and His message. They see contradictions from their understanding of God and their sacred writings, where Christians see those same writings fulfilled before their very eyes.

Peace…
[/quote]

First of all, the Trinity does not violate the law of non-contradiction. The Trinity is Three Whos in One What. Three Divine Persons in One God Head.

The same with the Incarnation. It is not a contradiction to have a Divine Being assume humanity. For He would have a human nature and a divine nature in One Person. It would be a contradiction to say that he is part human and divine for to be human is to be temperal and have a beginning and to be divine is to be eternal and without a biginning.

Show me how this violates the law of non-contradiction?

Peace

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#35

[quote=dennisknapp]First of all, the Trinity does not violate the law of non-contradiction. The Trinity is Three Whos in One What. Three Divine Persons in One God Head.

The same with the Incarnation. It is not a contradiction to have a Divine Being assume humanity. For He would have a human nature and a divine nature in One Person. It would be a contradiction to say that he is part human and divine for to be human is to be temperal and have a beginning and to be divine is to be eternal and without a biginning.

Show me how this violates the law of non-contradiction?

Peace
[/quote]

I think we are all in agreement that there are no contradictions. I believe you have misunderstood ahimsaman72. He is agreeing that there is no real contradiction. There only appears to be a contradiction to us. He is not saying that either example violates a law of non-contradiction.

Peace,
Jim

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#36

[quote=dennisknapp]This is all that I am saying. I am not saying that we can know if it was Allah or Christ. What I am saying is that it cannot be both Allah and Christ.

Peace
[/quote]

Ahhh… good. We have made some progress. Knowing is the key to understanding, isn’t it? The essence of the entity is the same no matter what. Allah and Christ are labels used to help us identify what we are talking about. They are useful for identification purposes. If your kid didn’t have a name, you couldn’t address him in conversation. You could refer to him as “it”, but he wouldn’t appreciate that very much :slight_smile: .

So, if we can’t **know **whether it is Allah or Christ, I would put the ball back in your court and say - “what’s the use?”. I want to know God. I don’t want to know Him as a label - as a concept. I want to know Him, understand Him. And, I do this the best I know how - using reasoning, perceptions, feelings, etc. I don’t simply want to know Him as a concrete reality. I would want to know Him in a direct, personal way. I offer these insights for conversation purposes, not as definitive statements.

Peace…

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#37

[quote=dennisknapp]This is all that I am saying. I am not saying that we can know if it was Allah or Christ. What I am saying is that it cannot be both Allah and Christ.

Peace
[/quote]

Dennis,

I am having a little trouble with this. I am not sure if we are all saying the same thing or not. Let me try again and you tell me if you agree or disagree.

1- There is only one God.

2- We suppose that both a Christian and a Muslim each perceive the presence of a deity. (And they perceive correctly that a deity is present.)

3- Because of premise 1 & 2 we would agree that the same deity was present to both individuals. Are we agreed?

4- Now, The Muslim has a name for this deity it is Allah. The Christian has a name for the deity and it is Jesus. (I will ignore the fact that indeed we have multiple names for God.)

5- These names have definitions. These definitions may be different. I do not pretend to know the complete definitions for either case.

6- If we list all of the attributes or descriptions of Allah and of Jesus we may find that: 6A- There are no differences, 6B- There is a longer list (additional attributes) for one than the other (e.g. Jesus has a human nature). Otherwise, the lists are identical. & 6C- There are attributes of one that contradict one or more attributes of the other. (e.g. Allah cannot be man).

Conclusion: If 6A then Jesus and Allah are synonyms and our apparent contradiction disappears. If 6B- then the names have differences, but either can be used without error of contradiction. The name Jesus would be more descriptive than Allah. (It is correct to call me a human and it is OK to call me a man. But man is more descriptive). Again, no real contradiction. If 6C then we still have an apparent contradiction. One or both of the lists must be incorrect. No real contradiction exists only an error in the descriptions. In this case there is no such thing as Allah unless we change the description.

Any objections?

Peace,

Jim

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#38

[quote=dennisknapp]“Is everything just a logical and rational reality and devoid of spirit?”

This question was posed on another thread.

Is all our reasoning truely devoid of all spirit if we rely on logic?

I would say that in order for anything to have meaning we have to use logic. For without it all our musing would just boil down to personal opinions and would cease to have any meaning.

I would also say that in order for things to have “spirit” they need to have meaning. Without meaning “spirit” would be irrelevant.

Peace
[/quote]

No. It is my opinion that the materialist and non-teological view of the world is fallacious. Logic and science (the use of the scientific method) are mere tools only. Tools that are useful to the theologian.

Please read the works of Saint Thomas Aquinas and see how he uses logic and sound reasoning to prove the existance of God.

“Man must Eat!” Karl Marx :mad:

“Man does not live by bread Alone!” :thumbsup:

“There’s more to heaven and earth Horatio than is dreamt of in thy philosophy!” Bill Shakes :yup:

Science does not have all the answers.

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#39

[quote=JamesD]Dennis,

I am having a little trouble with this. I am not sure if we are all saying the same thing or not. Let me try again and you tell me if you agree or disagree.

1- There is only one God.

2- We suppose that both a Christian and a Muslim each perceive the presence of a deity. (And they perceive correctly that a deity is present.)

3- Because of premise 1 & 2 we would agree that the same deity was present to both individuals. Are we agreed?

4- Now, The Muslim has a name for this deity it is Allah. The Christian has a name for the deity and it is Jesus. (I will ignore the fact that indeed we have multiple names for God.)

5- These names have definitions. These definitions may be different. I do not pretend to know the complete definitions for either case.

6- If we list all of the attributes or descriptions of Allah and of Jesus we may find that: 6A- There are no differences, 6B- There is a longer list (additional attributes) for one than the other (e.g. Jesus has a human nature). Otherwise, the lists are identical. & 6C- There are attributes of one that contradict one or more attributes of the other. (e.g. Allah cannot be man).

Conclusion: If 6A then Jesus and Allah are synonyms and our apparent contradiction disappears. If 6B- then the names have differences, but either can be used without error of contradiction. The name Jesus would be more descriptive than Allah. (It is correct to call me a human and it is OK to call me a man. But man is more descriptive). Again, no real contradiction. If 6C then we still have an apparent contradiction. One or both of the lists must be incorrect. No real contradiction exists only an error in the descriptions. In this case there is no such thing as Allah unless we change the description.

Any objections?

Peace,

Jim
[/quote]

I have a problem with premises 2 and 3, for it cannot be established that either had an actual “experience” of the divine.

But what can be established is that both could not have “experienced” the same deity, for the essential nature of each deity contradicts the other.

Premise 6 is a little foggy, but I would say that 6C nullifies 6A and 6B.

Peace

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#40

[quote=Kevin Walker]No. It is my opinion that the materialist and non-teological view of the world is fallacious. Logic and science (the use of the scientific method) are mere tools only. Tools that are useful to the theologian.

Please read the works of Saint Thomas Aquinas and see how he uses logic and sound reasoning to prove the existance of God.

“Man must Eat!” Karl Marx :mad:

“Man does not live by bread Alone!” :thumbsup:

“There’s more to heaven and earth Horatio than is dreamt of in thy philosophy!” Bill Shakes :yup:

Science does not have all the answers.
[/quote]

I would agree that logic is a tool used by philosophers and theologians to keep from being irrational. That is the purpose of logic.

Peace

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