Is God correcting me out of love, or punishing me out of wrath?


#1

How can one tell ? Or is the answer that we never can really be sure ? Are there ways to discern this ?


#2

My dear friend

God never punishes anyone or anything. We punish ourselves by upsetting the equilibrium for instance. God is Love and can only love. He loves us infinitely. This means He loves us with an infinite love because we are not infinite but finite, but He loves us finite beings with His unchanging immutable infinite love. Everything God does is motivated by love and God does everything His children need. There is no wrath in God. The wrath of God we speak of comes via other means like the equilibrium. God can only love.Hope this helps.

May the wondrous love of God embrace you:thumbsup::slight_smile:

John


#3

There is no wrath in God.

Sorry, but if that were true He would’ve set up an AIDs clinic and started handing out suckers In Sodom, and we all that didn’t happen.

Is God correcting me out of love, or punishing me out of wrath ?

The thing is, it’s both. When we do something wrong God doesn’t go, “Oh, it’s okay! I forgive you 'cus you’re so cute!” Like some us us do to a badly behaving puppy. If we separate ourselves from Him by sin we separate ourselves from Heaven unless we go to confession, for one. The laws of nature (which God created) punish us for another. Example: As sexual sin as increased, so has sexual disease and disintegration of the family unit. Not coincidence. Obviously God doesn’t want those things to happen and wants us not to have to face the eternal punishment of Hell, so the correction we receive on earth is merciful, out of love, and (we must remember!) only temporary.


#4

I like the word discipline instead of punishment. Someone used to say that God loves us too much to leave us the way we are. As the scripture says, all things work for good for those who love God. Whatever He is doing, He is doing it with a Father’s heart. So we must trust and submit!


#5

My dear friend

I understand your objection. It’s fair enough, but it’s wrong. God does not punish or have wrath. You need to understand my theory of the equilibrium to understand this. The destruction of Sodom was simply less mercy by God which allowed the equilibrium to destroy it. I know my theories are new and a bit revolutionary but there also quite often right. God punishes indirectly as said, but never directly. God has no wrath too. God doesn’t need to do anything with us or the angels. He has established a perfect world for both that is self sufficient. Punishments are automatic and do not need Gods input. But because He is holding back the equilibrium from annihilating us He does allow punishments by being less merciful, but this is for our own good.

God bless you dear friend:thumbsup::slight_smile:

John


#6

God disciplines us out of love… sometimes it seems harsh, but as CS Lewis said, suffering is “God’s megaphone to rouse a deaf world”


#7

I think that I wouldn’t be so occupied with this question, if I were you. God loves us all, and his wish is that we all reach heaven. I don’t know if God punishes someone. I think that the consequences of our sins often comes as a natural event. If you drive a car when you are drunk, the consequences might be that you have to live the rest of your life in a wheelchair. God did not punish you, your own behavior did so.

With that said I think that God’s holy wrath is something else than our anger. He can’t stand sin. That’s why he, in his mercy has given us the opportunity to confess sins. Sometimes we don’t see that we walk the wrong path and then it might happen that God has to use some sort of “hard” pressure to get us back on track. I think he does so with out of love. Discipline is not a bad thing. After all there is an aim with our lives. :heaven:


#8

John- I go by what I understand of Sacred Tradition and natural law, not your personal theories. If I am partially incorrect I’m certain I will come to know so in time or be corrected by a Church authority. However, what you propose is a indirect God that is not active in our lives or our world which is completely wrong. It is well documented in biblical and modern times and blatantly present in the sacraments.

Quite a bit of what you said sounds a lot like some eastern philosophies that favor of the ‘ying/yang’ version of the world instead of a deity ordered world. Frankly, it’s dangerous ground to be walking on. :frowning:


#9

Were do you find the theory of equilibrium in the catechism or any other official catholic paper? No place; John. I didn’t notice your post at once, but now I have seen it and I feel terrified about that someone dare to post his own theories as something big (revolutionary) when we have the Church and the Magisterium. Someone is asking you a serious question and you come with your own home-produced theories …:eek:


#10

God is Love and He works out of Mercy, for Mercy is a fruit of Love. He works for your Joy and Peace, for they too are fruits of Love. God corrects, heals, instructs, guides, leads, works, serves, honors, helps, speaks, and exemplies out of love for His creatures and creations.


#11

My dear friend

You misunderstand me and my theory. I’m sure the Pope will look at it one day:D

God bless you:thumbsup::slight_smile:
John


#12

My dear friend

It’s not in a catechism but my theories show a consistency to the faith when looked at in totality that shows God is love consistently rather than what we’re used to. Perhaps this would help millions who see all the inconsistency in our faith and reject it because of this? There is nothing much wrong with my theories from what I can see.

God bless you dear friend:thumbsup::slight_smile:

John


#13

My dear friend

Forgot to mention : It’s my hope that my approach will one day result in mass conversions from those eastern philosophies, buddhism etc. It depends when the church picks up the deas and develops them??? It can happen you know.

God bless you dear friend:thumbsup::slight_smile:

John


#14

God doesn’t need to do anything with us or the angels. He has established a perfect world for both that is self sufficient. Punishments are automatic and do not need Gods input. But because He is holding back the equilibrium from annihilating us He does allow punishments by being less merciful, but this is for our own good.

Not in accordance to Catholic Faith, I’m afraid. The Church teaches that God is the Father; He cares for, takes care of, and sustains the world He has created and He intervienes at certain times (miracles, apparitions, etc.). Moreover, He allows the world to journey to perfection, to consummation; the world is not yet perfect but it is being led by Him to that very end. Finally, God is not wrath but Mercy and He chastises us out of love. Sometimes this means He must allow sinners to reap what they have sowed, and while His Mercy hates to do that, His Justice demands it.


#15

Dear Nick

I know God intervenes in human hstory but He does not need to is what I’m saying. He has made a perfect world that is self sufficient. He does intervene now by holding back the equilibrium from destroyin us. This has been ging on ever since Noah got God to promise never to destroy man again. God did not cause the flood directly, but He did cause it indirectly by creating the equilibium which caused the flood. this is why its ok to say God caused this great punishmnnt But in reality we caused it and God did not cause it. He did cause it indirectly via the equilibrium though. Do you see what I mean? My theories show a consistency of God is love. I know some of my theories are new so I can’t quote a pope who supports them, yet!!!

God bless you dear friend:thumbsup::slight_smile:

John


#16

When I read John Russell’s words I am often reminded of my own puffy self-importance, and my own vain faith in my merely-human intellect, and it is humbling.

John Russell: Please don’t take this as a swipe against you, friend, but Benedicte_378 makes an important point here. It’s both jarring and scary to read that someone thinks that millions can be benefited if only the Pope would run with his ideas.


#17

Instead of thinking you are going to come up with new doctrine, why not learn the old doctrine first and what you have to believe and what you don’t?

Frankly you should be very afraid of teaching anyone false beliefs because there is a great penalty for it from God but… .

I see your particular belief is one that might free you from it. Do keep in mind God’s justice. …

You should seek to learn first not to teach and not to invent anything new.

Revelation is not new, there is nothing new in it. It is only a discovery of what was revealed of old. :slight_smile:

Whatever we think sound convenient and deductive, is just human reason. God is the way He has revealed to us, not the way we deduce He is because of our ‘reasonable expectations’.

As regards to correction from God, out of love, or out of wrath. . .

I think the answer is both. That is, God’s love and wrath go together. Even when saints suffer, they are suffering for the sake of God’s justice and so wrath and for God’s love, and they are taking the suffering someone else would have to suffer because of sin, upon themselves, and so helping others with true love.

We must remember that the Old Testament depicts God, and we must love Him in Old and New, and love all His deeds, because they are His will.

When people try to escape this then they start entering into trouble. Let us not think we are going to discover new things about God no one else has, that is hubris. We are to seek to learn from Him what He has already revealed to all mankind, nothing else is certain. :slight_smile:

Since God corrects us with love, we should always accept our punishments out of love, ‘Whatever His will is, that is my own’ we should say happily. :slight_smile: Like good erring children, repentant, we go and present ourselves for whatever punishments He desires, knowing He will show us mercy too because He loves us.

In other words, all our correction is for our own good. Even those in Hell, are there for their own good, they would be even worse off, in Heaven. I think one can understand this thought only slightly from afar, but by remembering that one can be happy to be punished for something if it makes something just and balanced again. And so it is somewhat less a punishment to receive punishment that is just than to receive neither justice nor mercy and to gain what is unlawful besides.

‘Blessed the one who draws near with fear and trembling and dread to the spotless Mysteries of the Saviour and has realized that he has received in himself eternal life.’

St. Ephrem of Syria

‘If Christ Jesus dwells in a man as his friend and noble leader, that man can endure all things, for Christ helps and strengthens us and never abandons us. He is a true friend. And I clearly see that is we expect to please him and receive an abundance of his graces, God desires that these graces must come to us from the hands of Christ, through his most sacred humanity, in which God takes delight. All blessings come to us through our Lord. He will teach us, for in beholding his life we find that he is the best example. What more do we desire from such a good friend at our side? Unlike our friends in the world, he will never abandon us when we are troubled or distressed. Blessed is the one who truly loves him and always keeps him near.’

St. Teresa of Jesus


#18

My dear friend

I understand all concerns over me. I assure you there is no bigger fan of the pope than me. I’ve never doubted or questioned anything any pope has taught since I first heard and understood it. I don’t have a big opinion of myself or my own importance. My theories are not contrary to the faith and do not displease the Holy Spirit. If I think my theories are useful for anyone I am only speaking truth and it could be reality one day. Stranger things have happened dear friend. You have not heard the end of my theories. If I contradict the church or displease God in any way I’m the first to want to know. But people should not discard what is new just because they don’t understand it. It might surprise anyone who reads my take on things to know I’ve never even doubted or questioned anything the church teaches when I keep coming up with my own ideas and take on things. I understand people might think me proud or arrogant but I’m not. If anything good was to come from me it would be thanks to God. That is my answer.

I’ll try to write more humbly though. I can see how I’ll be misunderstood. The sole objective of my life is to make catholic’s though. And to help catholic’s ne better catholic’s - especially myself.

I have a friend who did something very stupid and I found out last night. Can you guys pray for this person. It’s upset me a lot to find out what’s been done. It’s pretty bad.

God bless you dear friend:thumbsup::slight_smile:

John


#19

Dear Shin

Great to hear from you. I am doing what the Holy Spirit wants me to do, and nothing more. I am the biggest fan of justice. All I can say is I’m just another instrumnt of God like us all and I strive to be the best instrument I can. All that is good comes from God, so if I do any good or come up with any good ideas they must come from God.

God bless you dear friend:thumbsup::slight_smile:

John


#20

I pray your spiritual discernment of what is and what is not the Holy Spirit increases! :thumbsup: :smiley:

You wouldn’t be the first person made a fool of that way, nor the last! I know it well!

God does punish directly, look at Christ in the temple!

Benedice I pray!


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