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Is God’s love unconditional? I think not


#41

That is a very good list. Off the top of my head, on the spur of the moment, I would add the following…

-Lukewarmness (in the Book of Rev)

-Not stopping to help the injured Samaritan

-and… But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.2 Peter 2:12


#42

So you believe that some are predestined to hell?


#43

You are orphaning Scripture passages and using them for your arguments and

You are ignoring the two most important Commandments


#44

It is said at every Mass, it’s called the Eucharist.


#45

That would mean that God didn’t give us free will and we are just His “robots” to follow Him by force. NOTHING IS FARTHER from the truth. God doesn’t force anything on us. He from day one gave us Free Will and leaves our eternal salvation up to us. He gives us every possible opportunity and ability and means necessary to make it to Heaven for eternity. It is up to us whether we do that or not.


#46

We Catholics don’t use the Bible like this.

Are you a recent convert


#47

Yea, except the opposite of love is apathy, not hate. If God acted like you seem to want to, he would simply ignore the ungodly and allow them their fate, instead of sending the Son of God to redeem them.

You can’t accept the teaching and belief of the church without a bunch of labels.
Sad.


#48

Yes that’s why I asked that question.


#49

image


#50

Hi,

I am a cradle Catholic, altar boy for 5 years, Catholic school for 9 years (Sister Marie St. Paul, Sister Alberta, Mother Ignatius). The Catholic Church is the greatest gift to mankind since Jesus left. Praise God my mother named me Christopher which contains the name Christ of which no one is worthy.

Catholics use Scripture, Magisterium and Tradition equally. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using Scripture, if done in accordance with the Church and Tradition. And the Magisterium must adhere to Scripture and Tradition.

As I said, the Church nor Scripture nor Tradition never say “God loves everybody all the time unconditionally”. Some may infer this from the Eucharist, or Jesus on the Cross and these are surely proof of God"s unsearchable love which no one denies, but it is not the same as “everyboby all the time unconditionally.”

How can anybody explain away a simple declarative sentence…“God hates sinners” ?


#51

Catholics don’t proof text scripture.


#52

You can’t argue from absence/omission. Much of that is implicit in our Catholic Education. God loves us so much that he sent his only Son to die for ALL of us. If ones understand how profound this act is, there is no necessity for unnecessary words.

Where did Scriptures say he stopped loving his creation? Divine justice requires that he punish those that reject Him. But I don’t see in Scriptures that he stopped all loving for those. I don’t even see a verse that he say he hated Satan. We don’t really know the extent of his Divine Love so I see no assumption need to be made on any limitation of his Love.

Yes but no where it says he stopped his love. God punishes we know. Even parents that punish their children do not stop loving them.

You are asking for the negative. That’s why you are not going to see a line that matches your wish list. Scriptures is clear that God does not love everyone with equal intensity. He loves Jacob more than Esau for example. All you have shown is that God punishes some. You assumed that God 100% no longer loves them but that is not in Scriptures. The Church will not say something that she doesn’t know for sure.

In the Bible, you have to be careful when words get translated to English. In biblical hebrew, when translated to English, it says that God loves Jacob and hates Esau. It get translated like that because there is no word in ancient hebrew to say God loves Jacob more than Esau. But God does not hate Esau at all in the way we understand the word hate. Similarly in Luke 14:26 Jesus did not really command us to hate our parents in order to be his disciple. That would be contradicting his own commandment to honor our parents. What he meant is to love God more than our own parents.


#53

I have use Biblical texts as a validation of my points just like Catholic apologists do.


#54

Do you accept the New Testament as such a document?

The Church publishes extra documents to clarify what has already been written. Since this is self evident, why would anything else need to be written?

Perhaps you are wearing your tinted lenses?

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Do you believe that anyone is excluded from this?

No, Jesus does not say this. People have the freedom to depart from God’s love. Part of His love is the freedom to choose to remain with Him, or not. Jesus is God, and does not deny or disobey Himself. He gave us an example of an obedient life to follow.

I don’t see how this means His love is conditional. Those who were not His own could not understand that his sacrifice on the cross was the full extent of His love. The inability of those who are not His own to see his love does not mean He does not still love them. He even forgave those who crucified Him, because they knew not what they did.

This relates to the above. We have the freedom to depart from His love. He does not stop loving us, just like the Father of the Prodigal Son continued to love him after he left the house.

Our choice to depart from His love does not nullify His love.


#55

Contrary to popular believe, love and hate are not opposites. One cannot “hate” anything to which one is not attached and invested. God loves everyone He creates, but He allows people to choose to reject His love. God hates wickedness, and those who embrace it separate themselves from Him.

This is an expression of David.

And the unrighteous. But those who walk in His commandments will have blessings that the unrighteous do not.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we?

God’s justice is part of His love. He wants to purge us of all that interferes with our relationship with Him. The fact that there are consequences for sin does not equate to a lack of love. Would you honestly think a parent loved their child if all they ever gave the child to eat was candy?

Simple. Hate is not the opposite of love. The opposite of love is indifference.


#56

I guess we read it differently.

Clearly we listen with different ears.

The writings are to clarify what may not be obvious. Since this is obvious, there is no need to expound on it.

Clearly we understand the prayers differently. Do you think Jesus taught us to say “Our Father” because God does not love us as a Father to His Children?

Not because His love changes, but only because they choose to reject it.

I beg to differ. In fact, I would posit that we cannot do this without God’s love.
“Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us”. This is a supernatural ability.

Absolutely. He died because “He so loved the world”, but he loves us enough to give us choice and permits us to reject His love.

You have made an erroneous assumption that God’s wrath is somehow not loving. Love burns out all that is not of God. This is the fire of purgation. Those who choose not to be made holy by His burning wrath will be lost. This is how He separates us from sin.

I suspect this is because none of us understand these to say that God does not love everybody.


#57

Well, keep reading, you may be able to “see” it. I have read that, unless a person is spiritually renewed they cannot “see” the Kingdom of God. People who are not alive in the Spirit are blind.

219 God’s love for Israel is compared to a father’s love for his son. His love for his people is stronger than a mother’s for her children. God loves his people more than a bridegroom his beloved; his love will be victorious over even the worst infidelities and will extend to his most precious gift: “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son.”

1604 God who created man out of love also calls him to love the fundamental and innate vocation of every human being. For man is created in the image and likeness of God who is himself love. Since God created him man and woman, their mutual love becomes an image of the absolute and unfailing love with which God loves man. It is good, very good, in the Creator’s eyes. And this love which God blesses is intended to be fruitful and to be realized in the common work of watching over creation: “And God blessed them, and God said to them: ‘Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it.’”

220 God’s love is “everlasting”: “For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you.” Through Jeremiah, God declares to his people, “I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you.”

Maybe you are reading an abridged version? :wink:


#58

Thanks for the long reply.

From least to more important… I do agree that we have to very careful of Biblical translations, although I disagree with you on the “hate our parents” part.

Everybody knows that God punishes people, that is not the point. Every Catholic accepts that Jesus died for us out of his incredible love that we cannot fathom. Yes God created everyone in love but some loose his love according to Scripture.

I am not arguing from/for/about a negative. I am arguing for the position that these are 5-6 clear, definite, direct Scripture passages ( in my previous posts ) that say God hates some people or they do not remain in his love. I an not saying that they cannot repent and return to his love. They certainly can if they repent.

This is such a monumental, fundamental, essential theological issue about the very nature of God that simply to state that it is hardly necessary to talk about it or left up to Catholic schools is unworthy of it’s Divine importance.

I am arguing from omission. I cannot find, and nobody else can find in the Magisterium, the Scripture or Tradition De Fide that God loves “everybody all the time unconditionally”.

Again Thanks for your reply.


#59

Jesus died while we were still sinners. I think that’s the unconditional love of God. If God does not love the sinners, why would He die for them?

If we go to hell, it is definitely not God’s plan for us, since His plan is to save us from our sins by dying for us.

If we go to hell, it is our choice, which is to go against God’s plan of salvation for us.

I saw a thread here where a poster said he does not have guilt in sinning, and therefore keep on sinning and he knows that by doing so, will go to hell. It is his choice obviously, not God’s.

God bless you.


#60

Thanks for the good words. God Bless you also. may the Lord protect you and defend you.


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