is heaven or hell awaiting me? pt2

Hi all,

to all the posters of my original thread…

may I offer my sincere appreciation for all you responses.

you have given me great understanding of what you believe and why you believe what you do.

I sorry that we let my original thread get off subject resulting in its closure :frowning:

However, may I invite the original posters back and anyone else to continue what we started in the original thread and let’s try to stay on point.

the last point I made on the subject is…

Heaven is one place we all look forward to going to one day.
But we can not all agree on how to get there.

my question to open and continue this thread is

what do you believe is necessary for one to do to get to heaven?

thank you and God bless

Jesus said the way to Heaven is love: love of God and love of man. (Luke 10:25-28)

In the final analysis, God’s favourable judgement.

He’s the One who will say “Well done, good and faithful servant” or “Get away from me, you cursed.”

Whether we need to be cleaned up in Purgatory for a while is in one sense irrelevant, since all in Purgatory get to heaven eventually. Those in Purgatory may range from very good to indifferent or even bad, but repentant servants, but at least they are not “cursed”.

So finally, God’s opinion of us. As CS Lewis wrote somewhere, there will no hope that it is wrong.

Romans 10

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9**That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. **

Praise be to Yahweh! And his beloved son Yeshua!

NO ONE ELSE!!!

Well, since you provided so little information on what type of person you are, I cannot exactly say. Thanks for asking this question, by the way. It’s led me to more information and viewpoints on the afterlife!

Good Reading:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_realms
godvsthebible.com/chapter13

I believe we all can agree that in order for us to be accepted into heaven one needs to be in complete state of grace…sinfree.

Some questions which may be asked leading to a person’s state of grace are

How are our sins forgiven?
Are non catholic christians’ sins, who do not confess to a catholic priest, totally forgiven being they make a contrite remorseful repented confession directly to God?
Does a Christian have to confess through a priest in confession for their sins to be totally forgiven?
Can a christian have 100% assurance they are going to heaven should they die right now?

the answers to the above questions I believe are an important factor leading to a christians salvation

Consider PJM’s response to me in the “power given to priests” thread after it was agreed in the thread that the priest is not the one who actually forgives one’s sins.
***Our sins are forgiven only by the precious blood Jesus shed on the cross. ***

I asked in the thread…

how do you view a non catholic christian like myself who prays to God directly for forgiveness and also has an accountability partner, who in a way would have the same role as a steady priest to go to, they can trust?

Do you believe all the sins I confess to God directly, with the same contrite, remorseful, repentent heart I would if I were a practcing catholic be forgiven?

PJM responded

Great question.

And the answer is we [neither you nor me can know with certitude] for the following reasons.

It clearly is not the way intended and specified by God Himself in His “instruction manual” that we call His Bible.

On the other hand, God desires salvation for everyone, and God being “God” must be and has to be “fair and just.” So God will read your heart.

But only in the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation can one be absolutely sure that God has forgiven us! That is one of the VERY GOOD reason to be an inforned, practicing Catholic.

I found PJM’s response interesting.
especially when he stated… But only in the ***Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation can one be absolutely sure ***that ***God has forgiven us! ***

after seeing this statement I want to ask a question to PJM but it would be off topic so I copied it here.

Question is…
PJM, if you and other catholics believe what you stated,
“absolutely sure that God has forgiven us”,

then…at the precise moment, after confessing to a priest, immediately following your prayers of penance to God…

do you believe you and other catholics have the absolute assurance that you are in a state of grace?

taking it one step further…

should you have a fatal heart attack right there at the altar you will be in God’s presence for eternity in heaven?

I ask because I believe that we are so close to agreeing with each other that our sins are totally forgiven after we all make a sincere confession to God the way we have been…

take note to my response to two posters in the “Is heaven or hell awaiting me” thread, now closed?

I thank you #25 and justaservant #142 because you have stated your belief that their is hope for me that God will save me even though I am not a practicing catholic

Justaservant

Jesus said that all who believe and are baptised shall be saved. The Catholic Church accepts those who believe and are baptised properly. We hold to what the scriptures teach us concerning justification and salvaton.
You are member of the Church by virtue of your baptism. In imperfect communion with it, but still a member. God, in His mercy and sovereignty, can save whomever He wants. The way He established as the normative way was His Church, but God can save anyone He desires to. It is God who makes the descision as to who goes to Heaven and Hell, not us.

Just to remind you I do believe we can make the decision personally for ourselves but of course not for others…more later

humblelurker

by default, but if you live the best you can according to what you understand of the way, the truth, the life then you are Catholic to some degree.

Salvation is a grace from God through Christ Jesus. In all things, salvation is in God’s hands, for it is his grace, his gift.

humblelurker said it is His gift.

how many other catholics believe salvation is God’s gift?

my response…

wonderfully said and thank you for sharing your heart with what you believe to be true.
I agree 100% …Salvation is a gift from God He declares in His word…Romans 6:23

Now I have a question …
when a loved one presents a gift to you, held in their hands straight from their heart, What do you do??

accept it?

or

reject it?

cont…

cont…

humblelurker responded…

As far as accepting a gift from a loved one. I would have to say, "Accept it"
but understand that both Catholic Christians and non-Catholic Christians on this thread would say the same.

It is the details of the gift that seem to be keeping this thread alive.

I replied

I agree. But this gift is from God. and we hesitate to say yes.
I do not know about you…but being who I know who I AM…my mind want to hesitate and say to God…

“me in your presence in heaven?? not me. I am not good enough and deserving of being in your heaven”

I can relate to the bible when it says…

[quote]All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags

; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Isaiah 64:6.

But then I hear that small voice of the holy spirit speak to me. The one JustaServant referred to

Elijah heard God in the ‘still, small voice’, not the loudest in the room.

My heart and faith kicks in and with humility and trust in His promise I accepted His gift of Salvation out of His love for me.

can this possibly be another one of those divine mysteries you referred to earlier?..

(Catholics call a Divine Mystery since it can’t be fully comprehended by the finite mind). (By the grace and mercy of God for all things are possible with him.)

Even today my flesh is fighting my heart that I am fooling myself.

then I read

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
John 10:10

I believe satan is hard at work to steal from me what I have and he will not give up until he has accomplished his goal.

I also believe that satan is hard at work in distracting christians from having the blessing God wants to give them

Example… I was unemployed for 3 years…Satan sure did his work and distracted me.Yes I take full blame I was tempted and fell into his trap.

It wasn’t until I finally heard the voice of God and started to listen to the people he sent to me whom I initially put off out of embarrassment that the wheels stated turning again in the right direction.

I now have a secure job making, enjoying what I do and praisie God I am earning more than I ever did in my life.
[/quote]

humblelurker

It is the details of the gift that seem to be keeping this thread alive.

I responded

ah yes the details…right on

humblelurker

I hope that the other non-Catholic Christian posters on this thread accept Catholics as Sacramental Christians, and not believing in anti-catholic bigotry.

I responded

as I do. I also hope that catholics realize that I and other christians like me value the sacraments to.

We may not believe they are achieved in the same way as catholics, but we do value also value

Baptism
Confirmation
Eucharist
Healing and Anointing of the Sick
Penance and Reconciliation
Holy Orders
Matrimony

Are they truely a sacrament in God’s eyes?
We believe yes. you believe no.

Can we let God be the judge?
Hasn’t there been a lot of judging on this thread and others already.
Judging can lead to hurtful feelings and reactive comments which can also hurt.

Let’s show the outsider that even though we may differ in our beliefs about certain topics.

We can agree to disagree in love in the name of Jesus.

Yes??

God bless all of you

mpjw

How is it going my friend?
Déja vu all over again…:smiley:

Overall I, once again, stand on my original statement (on the other thread):

In all things, salvation is in God’s hands, for it is his grace, his gift. Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, so how much you know of the way, the truth, and the life and lived up to it determines judgment. You may never have been exposed to Christ by name, but you may know him by grace in your life.

And I’m sticking to it.

I would have to say that your statement about sacraments can be a bit misleading (or perhaps confusing). Or maybe it is just me :o :
As Catholics we do believe in the Sacraments, but our understanding is different.

To be clear for everyone:

My Question is, “Is this what the new Thread is all about?”

=mpjw2-Hi all,

To all the posters of my original thread.

May I offer my sincere appreciation for all you responses.

You have given me great understanding of what you believe and why you believe what you do.

I sorry that we let my original thread get off subject resulting in its closure :frowning:

However, may I invite the original posters back and anyone else to continue what we started in the original thread and let’s try to stay on point.

The last point I made on the subject is.

My question to open and continue this thread is

What do you believe is necessary for one to do to get to heaven?

Thank you and God bless

***The answer is easier to provide than the actions, commitment and beliefs require.

***Actually one need respond in two different manners. 1. For those who have the opportunity to know Jesus Christ and those who do not have this opportunity.

Because everyone on this Forum has such an opportunity, that is the group that I shall address.

Let’s set a foundation for our discussion.****

FACT: God will judge ones opportunity to know the truth, in the same way as one that knows the truth and denies or ignores it.
**
FACT**: God’s Holy Writ; our Bible is very much a “manual on How to Get to Heaven.” If one were reading a manual on how to build a Rocket to go the moon, such a person would be seen as foolish if they only read every third page. Not accepting the entirety of God’s Divinely [and carefully chosen] Words is just as risky, and has the same odds of success. Everything in the Bible is there for a God’s intended purpose.
**
FACT:** No where does the bible authorize “self-interpretation” of Gods Bible. However the Bible gives numerous passages on One Church, Binding and Loosing, and Governance. Space does not permit to post them so I will just list them for you.


First is a list of verses [note the use of singular tense] that support One Church:*** Mt. 16:15-19, 1 Tim. 3:15, Eph. 2:19-20, Eph. 4:4-8, Eph.5: 23, 1 Cor. 14:12, Eph. 3:9-10, Col. 1:18, Acts 20:28, Mt. 15, 15-18, Gal. 1:13 and 1 Cor. 12:12. Folks that is a lot of support for “One Church.”


Then these verses supporting that One Churches Authority***. Lk.10: 16, Mk.3: 13-14, Eph. 2:19, Mt. 28:20, Mt. 15: 15-18, Rom. 13:1, Jn. 17:15-19, Titus 2:15, 2 Cor. 10:8, 1Tim. 4:3, Titus 2:1, Isa.22: 22-24, Mt. 16: 15-19, 1 Jn. 4: 4-6, Jn.2: 34, 2 Cor. 9:13, 1 Pet.1: 12, Jn. 10:1-4, Mt. 7:21-22, and 2 Tim. 4:1-4. **

I would remind you that it is God’s idea, not the Apostles to Found the CC. He Jesus called them, not the other way around. Jesus Founded the CC, not the Apostles. But clearly, indisputably Jesus gave by prudent necessity all of the “tools” and authority to Govern and Grow His Church. [Mt. 28:19-20]. Anything less would have required reckless forethought not possible for our PERFECT GOD.
**
1st. Necessity** is belief in God. 1Jn. 2: 22-24, Mt. 10: 32-33, Lk. 12: 8-12.] But one must factor in that faith is a gift, not given to all, and not given to all in identical manner. Also as [Isaiah 55: 8-9] tells us we cannot understand the mind of God. His ways are NOT our ways.
**
2nd. Necessity:** Christian Baptism. Jn.3: 5].

3td. Necessity: Obedience to the Commandments and to His Entire Word [The Bible]. [Mt. 19:16, 2 Cor. 4:2-3, 1 Pet. 4:17-18, 2 Tim. 3:16-17, and 1 Thess. 1:8]
4th. Necessity: Acts of Charity [Mt. Chapters five and six, Rom. 13:9] and a dozen other places.
**
5th. Necessity: **Give visual evidence of your Faith beliefs in how you lead your life.

Next is not an absolute requirement, but certainly is the way, the manner, the desire of God most high, and that is to be an informed, practicing Catholic, Obedient to all Church teachings, doctrine and dogmas, and to the Magisterium [teaching authority of the CC]. Because Faith is a gift from God, that is given in different measure, and can be accepted or rejected, one does not in an absolute sense “have to be a Catholic” to get to heaven. However there are mightily good reasons to be Catholic, called the Seven Sacraments, which despite other claims “as ours too are valid” are sadly not. Only with Direct Apostolic Succession are the sacraments Valid.

6th Necessity: Is not to die [this includes everyone] with unconfessed, unrepented Mortal sins on ones soul. [1 Jn. 1;8-10, 1 Jn. 5:16-17, Jn. 20: 21-23, Mt. 16:19]

CCC 814 From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God’s gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church’s members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. “Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions.” The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church’s unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."
CCC 819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”***
In a way understood only by God, all salvation flows through His CC.

Hope this answers your question?***

Love and prayers,

Pat

the new thead is exactly what the OP states …to discuss the different beliefs we have in what it takes to get to heaven.

Our last thread headed that direction but then it got way of “course” leading to its closure.

God bless you my friend

Thank you Pat…I will be busy for a while checking out all the scripture you listed. I will respond soon.

God bless,

mpjw

No more thread necessary :thumbsup:

Thank you Gottle of Geer. if, and I say again, IF it were all that simple, and all would agree with you there would be no need to continue this thread other than to post an
"alleluia Amen"
by all in agreement.

If what Eucharisted said…

Jesus said the way to Heaven is love: love of God and love of man. (Luke 10:25-28)

which states…
**On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. "How do you read it?“
He answered:
” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’;
and,
‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ " **

“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied.
**“Do this and you will live.” **

I believe we are all in agreement here that when Jesus used the word “live”, He means eternal life in heaven

anyone disagree??

however, using a little of what humblelurker said in a previous thread,

It is the details …that seem to be keeping this thread alive.

here are some of those details…

I believe the catholic christian church is one of the most faithful, God loving, neighbor loving people within the christian family.

am I correct?
if yes let’s call this factor A

Once catholic, I very much value the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

As PJM said…

But only in the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation can one be absolutely sure that God has forgiven us!

and in answering my question…

What do you believe is necessary for one to do to get to heaven?

PJM resonded

The answer is easier to provide than the actions, commitment and beliefs require.

I can understand his sentiments, especially with the full answer he gave.
However the 6th necessity PJM gave was…

Is not to die [this includes everyone] with unconfessed, unrepented Mortal sins on ones soul.

consider this…

I believe what PJM is true and I believe you do too.

let’s say

a contrite catholic confesses with a sincere remorseful repented heart… every sin he/she ever committed to the priest in confession…

the priest offers absolution to the person and prayers of penance…

prayers of penance are said at the altar with the same sincere repentent heart

after he/she says “amen” at the conclusion of the prayers of penance,

I believe it is at this exact point in time, at the altar, that the individual can be as PJM said…

absolutely sure that God has forgiven…

then
this individual, I believe you and I would agree, has been returned to a state of grace.

am I correct?

if yes let’s call this factor B


let’s call Heaven factor C


No more thread necessary???

I hope not, but we will see

let’s put it all together…

A…

Eucharisted said…

Jesus said the way to Heaven is love: love of God and love of man

B…

an individual after confession,at the altar, be as PJM said…

absolutely sure that God has forgiven…

and has been returned to a state of grace.

equals

C…eternal life in heaven

which leads me into a followup question,

if there should be at any time in a catholics’ life that they can be sure that God will welcome them into His kingdom, it would be right there at the altar immediately pouring out their apologetic sincere contrite heart to Him in confession…

I believe that catholics can have the assurance of salvation, should they die at the altar, because as PJM said they have the absolute assurance God has forgiven them and are in a state of grace.

Since this person has crossed from death to life and when you read Romans 6:23…
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What reason, if any, would you not have absolute assurance of salvation?

In other words…

**what reason, if any, do you believe God would withold His gift of salvation should you die right there at the altar? **

this is what I sincerly do not understand?

thank you and God bless

One thing all Christians everywhere agree on is that:

to be able to get into heaven Jesus is necessary…he is the Door (John 14)

right? :shrug:

=mpjw2;5680835]I believe we all can agree that in order for us to be accepted into heaven one needs to be in complete state of grace…sinfree.

Some questions which may be asked leading to a person’s state of grace are

How are our sins forgiven?
Are non catholic christians’ sins, who do not confess to a catholic priest, totally forgiven being they make a contrite remorseful repented confession directly to God?
Does a Christian have to confess through a priest in confession for their sins to be totally forgiven?
Can a christian have 100% assurance they are going to heaven should they die right now?

the answers to the above questions I believe are an important factor leading to a christians salvation

Consider PJM’s response to me in the “power given to priests” thread after it was agreed in the thread that the priest is not the one who actually forgives one’s sins.
***Our sins are forgiven only by the precious blood Jesus shed on the cross. ***

I asked in the thread…

PJM responded

I found PJM’s response interesting.
especially when he stated… But only in the ***Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation can one be absolutely sure ***that ***God has forgiven us! ***

after seeing this statement I want to ask a question to PJM but it would be off topic so I copied it here.

Question is…
PJM, if you and other catholics believe what you stated,
“absolutely sure that God has forgiven us”,

then…at the precise moment, after confessing to a priest, immediately following your prayers of penance to God…

taking it one step further…

should you have a fatal heart attack right there at the altar you will be in God’s presence for eternity in heaven?

I ask because I believe that we are so close to agreeing with each other that our sins are totally forgiven after we all make a sincere confession to God the way we have been…

take note to my response to two posters in the “Is heaven or hell awaiting me” thread, now closed?

Justaservant

Just to remind you I do believe we can make the decision personally for ourselves but of course not for others…more later

humblelurker

humblelurker said it is His gift.

my response…

***With 100% certainty the answer is YES! While i could provide a dozen verses for verification look at Mt. 16:19, Mt. 18:15-18 and John 20:21-23. There may be a mid trip stop in Purgatory but Heven is definite!

Love and prayers,

Pat***

Correct.

:smiley:

Originally Posted by John7
One thing all Christians everywhere agree on is that:

to be able to get into heaven Jesus is necessary…he is the Door (John 14)
right?

Correct.

In deed Jesus is “the door” …"I am the way, the truth and the light, noone comes to the Father except THROUGH me.

Now read Mt. 16: 19, Mt. 19:16, Jn. 3:5 and Jn.20-21-23:D

Love and prayers,

I agree.:thumbsup:

do not shrug …

You are absolutely correct John …not just the door…

Jesus is the only door…Jesus said so himself " I am the Way the truth and the life…"

as PJM quoted above

God bless you John

PJM and humblelurker, thank you for your honesty. don’t you feel the most clean, pure and full of grace after a heart to heart sincere all confession before the Lord?

Just to let you know, I feel the same way too after I make a sincere confession before the Lord.

That is what I mean when I declare I am saved, …
I have 100% assurance I am going to heaven if I die right now.

I am talking right now at this moment… not tomorrow …not next week or next year,…right now,

I believe you know what I mean

My friends you are the first 2 catholics I spoken to who said they have assurance of their salvation at that point in time, like I have, immediately following confession, which I just made before the Lord

God bless am
d may He keep all of you strong in your faith

see you both on the other side of eternity in heaven:thumbsup:

mpjw

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