Is it a possibility that we JUMP OUT from Jesus hand and end up in hell? – John 10:28.

Blessings for Everyone,

Our salvation is the heart of the Gospel.

So, I’m wondering what is the view of the Catholics and Protestants on the following question:

Is it a possibility that we JUMP OUT from Jesus hand and end up in hell? – John 10:28.

Please give us the REASON of your view.

Thanks in advance.

Blessings.

LatinRight

Read the rest of the chapter. Kind of hard to do “one line theology”. Actually Chapter 8 has similar themes, as does the rest of this Gospel. Kind of hard to explain it simplistically.

What are your thoughts on it?

Hi LR,

I think the passage is saying more about Jesus’ power than something about those in His hand. He is claiming to have the same power to protect as God does. The next verse sortof shows that. Noone can snatch them out of His hand just like noone can snatch them out of the Father’s hand. Then He says they are one…then the crowd wants to stone Him for blasphemy.

But more to your question. I think of the prodigal son. Freely chose to leave his father. Freely chose to repent and return. But that doesn’t mean that every prodigal will choose to return. If he had died separated from his father, he would’ve still been a son, but died separated from his father. If we do that with God, we would call that hell.

I don’t think Jesus forces anyone against their will to remain within His hand. We could become like the prodigal and freely choose to leave Him. And then we could be in danger of dying separated from Him. That is why it is necessary to remain faithful and “endure to the end.”

I think the very existence of the NT epistles is a testament that we can indeed “jump out” of His Hands.
Read Hb 6:4-6. Paul writes of “partakers of the Holy Spirit” who have tasted of God’s Power, only to “have fallen away”. He doesn’t make any indication here that they weren’t “true” believers, rather they were believers who “tasted the heavenly gift” [they were saved] and now are not saved. Paul shows us again in Galatians 5:4 that in seeking to be justified by the law, the Christians he is writing to can be “severed from Christ” and those Galatians have “fallen from grace”. These were Christians who received the Word and the Spirit (Gal 3:1; 4:4-9)) and were “running well the race” (Gal 5:7) and THEN were tempted away from truth and toward going back to circumcision. They were Christians on the Vine of Christ, and then “severed” themselves from the Vine that they were truly attached to.

19 You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” (Rom 11:19-23)

I suggest that you take the time to download and study this excellent free Bible study MP3 on this topic from John Martignoni. It will help you immensely.
Once Saved, Always Saved?

Learn how to defend against this false and dangerous doctrine.

The following links form CA will also help you.
Once Saved, Always Saved?
Doesn’t 1 John 5:11-13 prove “once saved, always saved”?
What does the Bible say about “Eternal Assurance?” video

And this is also superior and informative.
Assurance of Salvation?

Blessings Church Militant.

Thank you for your post.
I know most of those articles they are useful teachings.

My posts nothing to do with the teaching of the “Once Saved, Always saved.”

My posts everything to do with the following teachings of the Catholic Church.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

“God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.” End quote Emphasize added.

AskACatholic.com

Quote: “What is Catholic view on predestination?

This is an often confusing and difficult subject to address.

The bottom line is that the Catholic Church does teach that the ELECT ARE

PREDESTINED, while concomitantly, free will is respected so that God is not involved

with coercion.

The best way to explain this is that God has foreknowledge of ALL those that would

RESPOND to his gift of self.

While He wills all to be saved (cf. 1 Timothy 2:3), NOT ALL accept Him (also, John 1:11-12).

In addition to this foreknowledge, God also has provided **ALL THE GRACE

NECESSARY **for those to be saved.

In this way, He has DETERMINED their salvation: by INSURING it.

So, in the end, God not only knows who will be saved, He “saw to it” that

they were saved, and respected the free will of those who were not.” End

quote. Emphasize added.

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Your Excellency:

For quite some time, a considerable number of Bishops, Judicial Vicars and others working in the field of canon law have been posing to this Pontifical Council questions and requests for clarification concerning the so-called actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica mentioned in canons 1086, § 1, 1117 and 1124 of the Code of Canon Law. …

(Paragraph 7 sums up the other six paragraphs.)

**7. It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**.

Faithfully yours in the Lord,

Julián Card. Herranz President

Bruno Bertagna Secretary

This notification was approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, who directed that it be transmitted to all Presidents of Episcopal Conferences. End quote. Emphasize and in the bracket is added.

Blessings

LatinRight

For further discussion paragraph 7 can be found here

/www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html

What is being said in the context? Leaving the Catholic Church does not invalidate belonging to the Catholic Church because of the conditions required for belonging to the Catholic Church, (ie you cannot be rebaptized, that was permanent, it does not disappear, it is not the Catholic Church who does this, it is God through the Catholic Church).

This baptismal mark is not a guarantee of salvation.

Blessings Darryl B

Thanks you for your post.

Unfortunately I couldn’t get on the screen the further discussion on paragraph 7.

The baptismal “mark” is not only a mark.

Our baptism is baptism into the body of Christ and the rest bellow INCLUDED.

  1. Members of the Body of Christ are the Bride of Christ.

  2. Members of the Body of Christ are God’s elect.

  3. Members of the Body of Christ have been predestined to Heaven.

  4. The names of the members of the Body of Christ stands written in the Book of Life from

the foundation of the world.

From the completion (before the foundation of the world) the Book of Life admits neither

ADDITIONS no ERASURES. - This is a very important fact!

** Paragraph 7**

**It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**. End quote.

Members of the Body of Christ = Bride of Christ = God’s elect = Predestined to heaven = Names written in the Book of life.

PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact of DEFECTION.

I believe Darryl B you agree with me.
The Eucharist is only for the members of the Body of Christ.

If we don’t believe we are members of the Body of Christ we are not free to partake in the Eucharist.

AN IMPORTANT WARNING FOR ALL OF US! – 1 Cor.11:27;

God doesn’t want that the reprobates whose names have been taken out from the Book of

life before the foundation of the world to participate in the Eucharist.

We all should know our standing before we partake in the Eucharist!

So, in 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND:

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope **YOU WILL FIND OUT **that we have not failed. End quote. Emphasize added.

Blessings

LatinRight

I think many people make this harder than it need be with regard to predestination. Does God know and has he always known? Yes. Does that mean he forces people to accept or not accept him? Nope.

Those are two very different things. One is knowing something, the other is acting upon it. Forcing someone to love or not love you isn’t love, It’s the opposite of love, coercion. God gave us free will to accept, not accept, deny, or jump. Just as Mary’s Fiat. That doesn’t mean he forced us to do any of the above, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t know. He offers salvation to everyone.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Oh and one of the dangers I have run across from people with regard to this subject is this: Just because God knows something, doesn’t mean that we know it too. It puts the person doing so in the place of God, a serious form of idolotry biblically. There is only one judge, and we aren’t Him.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Blessings Bestil Andno,

Thank you for your post.
It is good advice to remain faithful and “endure to the end.”

Quote from your post:
“And then we could be in danger of dying separated from Him.”

According to the THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect,

your above statement is a theological impossibility.

I show you Bestil Andno step by step our economy of salvation.

The principle and the definition of predestination can be taken from the Catechism:

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he

establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free

response to his grace.” – CCC, 600

The same principle applies to the election of God.
1 Pet.1:2; “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, …”

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

“God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES. End quote Emphasize added.

To understand the economy of salvation it is crucial to understand the THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.

For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or

that one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

To understand the economy of salvation it is also crucial to understand the Book of life.

The “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which contains

the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

God has completed the Book of Life, (by taken out from the names of the reprobates for

their rejection of God and His grace) before the foundation of the world.

It is crucial to understand:

After the completion of the Book of Life, there are two groups of people in the world.

a. The elect of God who are predestined to Heaven.

b. The reprobates whose names taken out from the Book of Life for their rejection of God and His grace.

It is also crucial to understand:

The Book of life was completed before the foundation of the World.

After completion, the Book of Life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

The above theological fact is a conclusive proof that God does not save reprobates and

God’s elect predestined to Heaven cannot lose their salvation.

Of course we have many other facts that also prove, God don’t save reprobates and

God’s elect predestined to Heaven cannot lose their salvation.

Continue

It is also crucial to understand who are those whom God calling into his service.

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

As we see above Rom.11:29; is in perfect harmony with the **THE CATHOLIC

DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect and with the ACTUS FORMALIS

DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

It is also crucial to know, who are those whom God baptizes into the Body of Christ.

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

As we see above, God only baptize into the Body of Christ who are God’s elect predestined to Heaven.

So, the principle referring to God’s elect, predestined to heaven:

For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL

then God would have been MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would

NO LONGER be omniscient.

Because the predestined to Heaven make up the Body of Christ, the same above principle

referring to the Body of Christ as well.

For if it were possible that a member of the Body of Christ should after all be CAST INTO

HELL then God would have been MISTAKEN in His foreknowledge of future events; He

would NO LONGER be omniscient.

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Paragraph 7

**"It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION."** End quote. Emphasize added.

As we see: Paragraph 7 built on the THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL

then God would have been MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events;

He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

The members of the predestined to Heaven are the members of the Body of Christ as well.

I’m not proud of it, but I have to admit:

In the past I have used many Bible verses for attempt to prove, by using our free will we

can JUMP OUT from the hands of Christ.

At that time I didn’t know:

The very nature of omniscience demands that, our names, our career on earth includes

our free will is present before the Divine mind from all eternity.”

God don’t have to wait until we have the will to JUMP, our will is present before the Divine

mind from all eternity and He has COMPLETED the Book of Life and He has MADE His

predestination ACCORDINLY before the foundation of the world.

I believe the following warning completes the post.

AN IMPORTANT WARNING FOR ALL OF US! – 1 Cor.11:27;

God doesn’t want that the reprobates whose names have been taken out from the Book of

life before the foundation of the world to participate in the Eucharist.

We all should know our standing before we partake in the Eucharist!

So, in 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND:

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope **YOU WILL FIND OUT **that we have not failed. End quote. Emphasize added.

Blessings

LatinRight

Actually the simple answer is indeed “Yes”.

Look at all the scriptures that call for us to be diligent and faithful and persevering

For example have a look at ***Revelation 3:[5] He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

***[FONT=Georgia]Your question actually does hinge upon the “OSAS/Eternal security of the believer” errors.

In the above verse, Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ plainly tells us that some whose names are in the Lamb’s Book of Life (indicating they are “saved”, if you will) and that if anyone fails to persevere their name can be blotted out by Our Lord, which plainly indicates a loss of salvation. IOW a departure from the Father’s hand. (See also John 10:29)
[/FONT]

Lot to chew on there, LR…:)…still chewing…gonna take awhile…

(I admittedly do not know much about predestination…hence the chewing :slight_smile: )

A question that comes to my mind right off hand, though, is: “Why does anyone have to endure until the end to be saved?” (Matt. 10:22 and elsewhere) Isn’t that only necessary if it is possible to NOT endure until the end and NOT be saved?

Thanks for the reading material. Going back to chew on it some more…:slight_smile:

I had a discussion once with a priest friend of ours who is both a Dominican Friar and someone who wrote their Master’s thesis on Predestination.

… even he had difficulties with the subject, and he has the massive advantages of being a great intellect who was formed at a wonderful institution like the Dominican House of Studies.

The fact is that we know that God is sovereign and we know that He desires all men to be saved and we know that we have free will.

Any theory that tries to over-emphasize one of those aspects to the exclusion of the others is going askew.

Edit: If you would like to listen to an EXCELLENT beginner-level presentation on this subject, I would recommend Dr. Lawrence Feingold (here).

Dr. Feingold is a Thomistic philosopher—who incidentally has lectured at the aforementioned DHS—but he happens to accept the Jesuit understanding of Predestination.

Blessings Church Militant,

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.” End quote Emphasize added.

Of course God can take names out from the Book of life and in fact He has taken out all the names of the reprobates.

God took out the names of the reprobates from the Book of Life when He has completed it BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

NOT in our time!!!

From the completion, (completed before foundation of the world) the Book of Life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

And this is the key to understand.

It happened God’s “timing” before He has created the world.

For our human understanding, when the Bible speaks about the Book of Life, speaks about in our chronological order.

Key to understand:

“The book of life is a list which contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.”

God has predestined the elect the Heaven. – They cannot lose their salvation.

God has baptized the predestined to Heaven into the body of Christ.

Same principle apply. – They cannot lose their salvation.

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Paragraph 7

**It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**.

Of course we need warnings, but this doesn’t mean we lose our salvation.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient. End quote. Emphasize added.

Blessings

LatinRight

For me the most important thing is this

God predestines no one to go to hell, for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but to come to repentance”.

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family,
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.

This is also an interesting article

catechism.cc/articles/predestination-universal-salvific-will.htm

‘Because of this we are no longer afraid: our life is now saved from perdition. Nothing and no one can take us from the hands of Jesus, because nothing and no one can overcome His love. The love of Jesus is invincible. The evil one, the great enemy of God and of His creatures, attempts in many ways to take eternal life from us. But the evil one can do nothing if we ourselves do not open to him the doors of our hearts, following his deceitful enticements.’

source: news.va/en/news/pope-at-regina-coeli-full-text

And that’s the point.

God does NOT remove our free will. No one can snatch [FONT=&quot]us, but there is [FONT=&quot]no guarantee we won’t exercise our free will to leave on our own.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][/FONT]

Blessings for everyone,

John 10:28; …

A SUPREMELY IMPORTANT QUESTION

Is it a theological possibility that someone walk away from Jesus and end up in hell

without destroying the omniscience of God and **mess up **the Book of Life?

  1. THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient. End quote. Emphasize added.

  1. THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote: “God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES. End quote. Emphasize added.

  1. THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote: “The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasize added.

  1. **PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Paragraph 7.

Quote: **It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**. End quote. Emphasize added.

  1. THE SRIPTURE INFALLIBLE AFFIRMS

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

Could anyone please explain to me, how can anyone walk away from Jesus and end up in

hell, without destroying the omniscience of God and mess up the Book of life?

If no one can explain it.

Do I have any choice other then to believe; no one ever jumped out from the hand of

Jesus in the past Christian history and no one will jump out from the hand of Jesus in the

future Christian history and ALL will end up in Heaven? – John 10:28.

Continue

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