Jesus was very strict when it came to Hell and who goes to Heaven, that does not take away the fact that he also i believe has great mercy to people that have committed sin but still show a real effort to avoid it. What Christ had no time for was for those who were unrepentant and loved their sins, those people he stated clearly would go nowhere else but Hell.
can you define what is the teaching of the church and what is not?
I could do that but my time is limited this morning, and resources have already been posted, and so I invite you to ponder what has been posted and what the Church says through the living Magisterium.
to help you, since you do not have the time. can you remind us of what the living magisterium has said about the teachings of the fathers of the church and the teachings of the doctors of the church? can we remember what the living magisterium has to say especially about the teachings of St. Thomas?
What is your question?
You seem to deny that grace respects free will, and that God graces some people in a way that removes certain human possibilities from them.
That is not the Catholic position on grace and free will.
Mary for instance, could have sinned, but did not. She had full human free will in regard to all possibilities.
MARY WAS FREE FROM ALL PERSONAL SIN John Paul II
Testifies that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life.
Trent expresses this conviction, affirming that no one can avoid all sins, even venial sins, throughout his life, unless he is given a special privilege, as the Church holds with regard to the Blessed Virgin (DS 1573).
The Council of Trent asserts, a special privilege guarantees this immunity from sin. And this is what happened with Mary.
The special privilege granted by God to her who is all holy leads us to admire the marvels accomplished by grace in her life. End quote.
We may say, Mary had the free will to sin but for Mary to commit even one act of sin it was a theological impossibility.
God has given to Mary His gift of faith and He has also given to Mary all the graces necessary to infallible accomplish her God’s gift of fate.
The same principle applies also to all of us, God has given all of us according to His will different gift of fates and He has also given us all the graces necessary for infallible accomplish our God’s gift of fates.
For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the Divine will or power is called fate.
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God.
Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
God, directs EVERYTHING/ EVERY EVENT according to His DIVINE DESIGN/ PLAN, and every event preordained from all eternity, nothing occurs by chance.
As we see above, our fates is NOT IN US, but our fates is IN GOD, which is His tailor-made gifts of fates for every person and this tailor-made fates, with all the necessary graces which we need to infallible accomplish our fates preordained to given to all of us from all eternity.
If anyone like to have further information on the above subject, please read Thistle’s, above post No. 8.
One of the best and clearest post I ever read on the above subject in the CAF.
Of course all the celebrated Catholic theologians believes no one rejects efficacious graces, because this is a Theological Fact.
Every Catholic officially free to believe, everyone freely choose to cooperate with efficacious graces and no one ever rejects efficacious graces.
Theological fact; If even one elect in all Christian history would reject efficacious grace as a result he could end up in hell and God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE.
Furthermore, if even one receiver in all Christian history would reject the efficacious grace of God’s Gift of Final Perseverance would end up in hell and God would instantly lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence says.
The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in P.L.
When God wills to permit us to commit an act of sin for the reason to convert our sin into good He provides us a sufficient grace and by FREE WILL choice resisting sufficient grace we commit the act of sin and God converts it into good. – A part of the process the way God makes us saints.
When God wills not to permit us an act of sin He provides us an efficacious grace and we by FREE WILL choice every time infallible resist the temptation of sin.
We would not have to be spiritual geniuses to see, with sufficient and efficacious graces God PERFECTLY GOVERNS/ CONTROLS the entire human race.
We would not have to be spiritual geniuses to know, if sometimes we would reject or accept sufficient and efficacious graces, the human race could not be under God’s control but God would be under the control of the human race.
Everyone EVERY TIME FREELY rejects sufficient graces and everyone EVERY TIME FREELY cooperates with efficacious graces.
Neither sufficient nor efficacious graces takes away our free wills.
Did you notice?
When we read the Scripture, we see in parallel there are two lines of teachings.
One line is only a few people saved, the other line is God’s Universal Salvific Will and God saves everyone.
Before Vatican II the theologians mostly focused on the line teaches only a few people saved.
At Vatican II and after the theologians started to focus on the line which teaches God saves everyone.
oliver109 - Ask God - as humans here on earth, we only have a very limited understanding of what the spiritual, moral and ethical dimensions are all about. Once in Heaven, [please God], we are given a far greater understanding and knowledge of these dimensions - but only God possesses the ‘full picture’ of these things - and as fount and arbiter of love, truth and fairness, we should trust and accept any judgement made.
OUR JUDGMENT AS FOLLOWS
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
As we see above God’s fair and loving judgment takes place in line with His Universal Salvific Will as it is also described in Eph.1:9-11; Col.1:20; etc.
Eph.1:9-11; He made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfilment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth in Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
Col.1:20; Through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
HOW COULD BE A DIFFERENT JUDGMENT when our fates are NOT IN US, but our fates are IN GOD, which is His tailor-made gifts for every one of us and the fulfilment of our fates predestined from all eternity in conformity with the purpose of his will?!
Catholic Church does not believe in double predestination.
God’s grace invites our free will response.
We must cooperate to live in God’s love.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect.
Quote: Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:
(a) one to heaven.
(b) one to the pains of hell.
However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine reprobation so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.
The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine reprobation.
Merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).
Calvinistic reprobation means the absolute will to condemn to hell. End quote.
The Catholic Encyclopedia Divine Providence says, life everlasting promised to us, but unaided we can do nothing to gain it.
John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.
While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.
John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you. – Jesus is very clear, our fates are not in us but our fates are in God and in His choices, I believe God’s Universal Salvific Will, I also believe He has chosen everyone of us.
Phil.2:13; For it is God who works in you BOTH to WILL and to ACT in order to fulfil his good purpose.
2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man.
God’s gifts of efficacious graces enlightens our minds and we ALWAYS FREELY and INFALLIBLE choose to cooperate with efficacious graces.
All our good choices and good acts are the products of God’s gifts of efficacious graces.
Just curious, which denomination do you belong to?
I respect what you believe, but also affirm what we as Catholics believe. Namely that God predestines no one to hell, and that God respects the free will choices we make as his creatures.
The Catholic Church (the only Church established by Christ and given authority to teach in matters of faith and morals) teaches that NOBODY IS PREDESTINED TO GO TO HELL. This teaching, as do all others, have the full authority of God supporting them.
I was long time an Evangelical Christian, I use to believe only Christians can be saved.
Four years ago I moved to an area where is only Catholic Church so I did my RCIA and I become a Catholic.
In the RCIA they taught us universal salvation without the words used universal salvation.
Of course I didn’t believe a word of it that God saves everyone but I acted as a good RCIA student should act, I knew my place that I’m a student even at that time I was 70 years old.
After RCIA I started to study Catholic Soteriology (study of religious doctrines of salvation) for the reason to find out is it true that God saves everyone.
In the progress of my study first I strongly resisted the knowledge that God will really saves everyone, then Catholic Soteriology won, now I believe at the end God’s Universal Salvific Will, will triumph.
Now I thanking God every day for many reasons, one of the reason is He brought me into the Catholic Church.
In the Evangelical Christian Church I could not believe that God will saves everyone.
Yes God respects the free will choices we make as his creatures, but we should know and we should never forget, every our good decisions and every our good acts are the products of God’s gifts of efficacious graces.
WE SHOULD ALWAYS KEEP IN MIND
These Theological Facts as follows are VERY IMPORTANT PARTS of our fullness of the truth!
The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.
Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.
In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH to WILL and to ACT for His good pleasure.”
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
Of course free will in itself is not sufficient.
Here’s the key:
salvation is about relationship.
Salvation is the unity of man with God in beatitude. But it’s not a one way street. You have to think about this as both/and, not either/or.
God gives himself in grace. Man responds with his free will. When man responds with fee will, his will is united with the will of God.
Salvation is reciprocal. Yes, it is a gift of God, but the gift is for us. God does not need salvation.
God creates man out of love so that man might return that love. Man is created by love, for love.
It’s a covenant, not a legal contract.
You are thinking about salvation contractually.
if what we are saying here is not making sense, please trust a good priest.
Calling Universalism catholic. That’s a new one.
Yes, oddly enough universalism also robs man of free will.
I don’t believe in free will, so I am perfectly fine with it being robbed of man. As a creature, I am not in a position to have free will. I have God’s will. That being said, universalism is not catholic or apostolic. If that is what the Roman Catholic Catechism is now teaching, I would be very concerned.
Don’t worry, it doesn’t, and we’ll never hold it to be true. It is one thing to hope that all will be saved; it’s a wonderful thing to hope for! But we cannot say all will be saved. That statement is condemned by the Church.
I am concerned that you don’t believe in free will.
That makes us slaves.