Is it "lucky" to die in a state of grace


I agree with you Thistle that God predestined no one to hell but this teaching in some Catholic circles still goes on.

I have to admit I use to believe it but since I study Catholic Soteriology I don’t believe God predestined anyone to hell.

I just learned recently one of the most wonderful and most important Theological Fact as follows.

For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the Divine will or power is called fate.

But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God.
Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
When we understand the meaning: Our fates are not in us but our fates are in God and the Divine will is cause of all things that happens, we know our future is in heaven and hell is empty.
God bless


It is the will of God that his human creatures should love him in return.
That’s it.
Love only exists in freedom.

In my opinion, the source of your confusion is God in relation to time. God does not experience time, so you cannot demand of God “what does God know, and when does God know it?”. Time and “coming to know”, or “fate”, however you want to frame the knowledge of our destiny… is subject to time. Time is for human beings, not God.


Our love is the product of God’s gifts of efficacious graces, efficacious graces NEVER takes away our free wills.

I know Catholic Soteriology reasonably well, no worry please.


All good so long as we admit that God offers every person without exception the grace to love him in return.


This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi;).
That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
God bless


No, it makes us creatures. And the apostles had no issues with being a slave. You are either a slave to God or Satan. You pick.

“…and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.”

“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.”

We are only free when God delivers us from sin and he enables us to do God’s will through faith.


“Servant” of all. Slavery is sometimes used in this context, but never meaning to rob human free will.


First, free will assumes you have the motivation and the ability to bring something about. Humans do not have free will, they are creatures, they have contingent will. Our will is contingent upon God’s will.

So as an example, the serpent convinced Adam and Eve that God’s warning, that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they would die, wasn’t true. They could eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and become like God, and not die. Their wish was to do just as the serpent stated. However, by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they violated God’s will and incurred the penalty of death (which was against their wish). So they didn’t exercise free will, they exercised a contingent will and incurred the penalty for violating God’s will and became slaves to sin.

Now we are slaves to sin. We cannot of our own will be obedient to God or be justified before God. It is only through grace that God sacrificed his son and gives us faith through the Holy Spirit that we are freed from the penalty of sin. So once again, you are not exercising free will, but are dependent upon God’s grace who brings this about, contingent will. The good news is this, our salvation is not based on our will or our work, which is tainted by sin and hence cannot be assured if we are the measure of our salvation. Our salvation is based on God’s grace and his free will choice to provide us that grace. Because our salvation is based on God’s work, it IS assured.


That’s just not so.
Don’t know where else to go with this and my timeis limited.
And we are talking two different languages I think. What is your faith background?


We certainly are, because there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that God cares a rip about our “free will” and “individuality.” That is Descartes, not Paul.


Why did you inject “individuality” alongside free will?
Because you don’t understand the issue of free will.

That’s ok, i respect what you believe , but the Catholic position is otherwise.


Fair enough. I would just argue that the “Catholic” position has reversed itself due to the Enlightenment Age and has incorporated Pelagianism. Augustine would be shaking his head.


Human beings use free will with divine assistance. It’s BOTH. And both fully. One does not detract from the other.


Exactly. Pelagius. Thanks for clarifying.


Pelagianism denies the relationship between divine aid and free will. That’s not what’s being said. What do you not understand?
Your thinking is Calvinist. Ok.
We are talking about what the Catholic Church teaches. The Church does not deny original sin, and does not deny the primacy of grace in all things. Nor does the Church deny free will.


No, actually it does not. Pelagianism states that it is through divine aid that we do good works through the gifts of “free will” (which Augustine rejected), and the revelation of the law and the teachings of Christ.


I was at church, praying the glorious mysteries, before mass, with 30 others -
and you have The Ascension -
the virtue of that mystery - that you pray for - is for a happy death.
Not a bad thing to ask for - while it’s still a ways away !


No, not in Catholic thought. Pelagianism asserts that man’s will is sufficient unto itself, without the help of divine grace.
These things must be held in relationship, because that’s what salvation is: right relationship with God.
Love only exists in freedom.
Have a blessed weekend.


I would suggest you actually study what Pelagius wrote.


Most Catholics teach the Molinist idea of salvation which is similar to Pelagianism but recognizes the fact that we cannot do good without Gods grace and being able to respond to it. Thomism is more similar to Calvinism in that it is taught that God specifically abandons certain people to damnation by not offering sufficient graces though the damned still choose damnation because of their lack of repentance at the moment of death.

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