Is it ok for Muslims to torture Christians?


#1

Imprisoned Christians protest Saudi mistreatment

Riyadh, Jun. 03 (AsiaNews) - The releatives of 8 Christians who were arrested in Saudi Arabia on May 28 have issued an appeal, through the AsiaNews service, for the prisoners’ release. In their appeal, the relatives report that the prisoners have been tortured by the Saudi religious police, or Muttawa. And an Indian Christian who was jailed on similar charges last year confirms that he was subjected to torture.

Full Article


#2

They are unfaithful, in the Koran said, that in the Arabian Peninsula only is for islam. But christians don´t want to understand this because is too hard.


#3

[quote=Franze]They are unfaithful, in the Koran said, that in the Arabian Peninsula only is for islam. But christians don´t want to understand this because is too hard.
[/quote]

The Christians are unfaithful or the Muslims?


#4

As a Christian I vote : no!


#5

Freedom of conscience is laid down by the Quran itself: ‘There is no compulsion in religion’. (2:256)

The life and property of all citizens in an Islamic state are considered sacred whether a person is Muslim or not.

Racism is incomprehensible to Muslims, for the Quran speaks of human equality in the following terms:

O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God’s sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All Aware 49-13


#6

[quote=Ahimsa]Freedom of conscience is laid down by the Quran itself: ‘There is no compulsion in religion’. (2:256)

The life and property of all citizens in an Islamic state are considered sacred whether a person is Muslim or not.

Racism is incomprehensible to Muslims, for the Quran speaks of human equality in the following terms:

O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God’s sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All Aware 49-13

[/quote]

Isn’t this quote really from a hadith, though?

“Muhammad said, ‘When Allah created Adam, He hit Adam on the right shoulder and the white race sprang out, while the black race came from the left shoulder. Allah said to those of the right hand to Paradise you are and to the left to hell you go.’” (Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 1, no. 119)

The only other thing I’d have to say here is that my first roommate in college was a Muslim. He told me that as a kid his parents didn’t want him going out to play in the sun so frequently and told him, “Why do you go out in the sun so much? You used to be so fair-skinned.” It didn’t make since to me then but it jumped out at me later when I started to learn more about Islam.


#7

Hadith, though, do not have the same authority as the Qur’an:

Though the Hadith has complemented the teachings of the Holy Qur’an in many respects, they are in essence distinct from each other. Muslim scholars have dealt extensively with the differences that exist between the Holy Qur’an and the Hadith and some of these differences are enumerated hereunder:

  1. Hadith is not necessarily the exact words spoken by the Prophet (s.a.w.s.), while the Holy Qur’an is the actual words of Allah.

  2. The Hadith is not protected by Allah (SWT) from corruption while the Holy Qur’an is.

  3. The Hadith from or about the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) is the word or action of a human being and not the speech of Allah (SWT) as is the case of the Holy Qur’an.

  4. Every word of the Holy Qur’an is transmitted by tawatur (i.e. many people throughout the generations) while the same cannot be said of each and every Hadith.


#8

So there is nothing completely authoritative in any Hadith? That’s what one of my friends told me, but still it seems like they are cited quite frequently among Muslims.


#9

So there is nothing completely authoritative in any Hadith? That’s what one of my friends told me, but still it seems like they are cited quite frequently among Muslims.

Different hadiths have different levels of authority. The two most authoritative collections of hadith, and the two that you are most likely to see in English, are Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslims. They are considered the most authentic hadiths with the best chains of transmission. Hadiths, though, unlike the Qur’an, are not considered infallible; rather, they form a sort of “oral law” similar to the Talmud, filling in details that are not supplied in the Qur’an. For example, the Qur’an commands the believers to pray the salah, but does not say how; it is the hadith that give the precise prayers and postures to be used.

Differing schools of Islamic jurisprudence give varying weight to the hadith, but none of them rely exclusively on them; logical reasoning, analogy, customary practice, and the teachings of the sahaabah or companions of the prophet are also used in deriving legal rulings.


#10

[quote=exoflare]So there is nothing completely authoritative in any Hadith? That’s what one of my friends told me, but still it seems like they are cited quite frequently among Muslims.
[/quote]

Exflare:

Islamic countries do NOT allow anyhting like Freedom of Religion.

The report from Saudi Arabia is nothing unusual. The Saudis do NOT allow ANY NON-Islamic religious expression. So, Bibles are CONFISCATED UPON ENTRY. Masses and services are NOT allowed! and, Christians are encouraged to LEAVE AS SOON as their contracts are finished.

Jews aren’t even allowed in the AIRSPACE!

That’s the Saudi interpretation of the Koran and their version of Sharia Law.

Sudan - The government and associate militia have together slaughtered over 2 million black African Christians and Animists in Southern Sudan, while selling another 350 of these Black Sudanese into SLAVERY! Their version of SLAVERY permits the rape of female slaves and the crucifixion of male slaves.

That’s their interpretation of the Koran and of Sharia Law.

Pakistan has laws against insulting the Koran, the Prophet or Islam. Those laws have recently been used to kill Sentence a TAC Bishop and other Christian minsters and Catholic Priests to Death and to prison.

They dared to call Mohammed a “False Prophet”, refused to say the Islamic Profession of Faith and said, “Jesus is Lord!” If they had said the Islamic Profession of Faith instead of “Jesus is Lord”, their lives would have been spared.

That’s thair interpretation of the Koran and of Sharia Law.

After the recent Tsunami, The Government of Sri Lanka refused to accept a field hospital and other rescue equipment and personnel from ISRAEL, because Islamist extremists controlled much of the area that had been severely effected by the Tsunami. The Islamists would have shot at the Israelis and prevented them from doing their job rather than allow lives to be saved.

The Israeli rescue and medical teams were IN THE AIR ON THE WAY to Sri Lanka when they were recalled. The teams were willing to brave the bullets from the Islamists if they thought they could save lives. Both of their governments had to convince the RESCUE TEAMS that the Islamists would rather watch their FELLOW MUSLIMS DIE than risk allowing the Israelis to save ANY OF THEM, so they would use more than just bullets to stop their rescue efforts.

That’s their interpretation of the Koran and of Sharia Law.

I could go on, but I think that makes the point.

Here are a few points to think about:

dhimmitude.org/archive/by_lecture_10oct2002.htm
frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10242
domini.org/openbook/home.htm
viamission.org/news/nations/sudan.htm
nationalreview.com/comment/krnjevicmiskovic200403190842.asp
jihadwatch.org/
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/
yahoodi.com/peace/india.html
hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_kush.html
shianews.com/index.php
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37323
conceptwizard.com/pipeline_of_hatred.html
islamidag.dk/ulamaongold.html
homepages.tscnet.com/omard1/dinar.htm
telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/13/wbusy213.xml
fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm
library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/fatw2.htm (In Arabic)
al-islam.org/short/jihad/
gamla.org.il/english/article/1999/jan/cair3.htm
islamonline.net/English/Views/2004/05/article05.shtml
memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR01002

I believe the above represent what the islamists really teach and believe. I even included something from the Shia since they are now the targets of much of the violence in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

It’s really quite bloody and not very promising.

Blessed are they who act to save God’s Little Ones. Michael


#11

I am very much opposed to the use of torture by either side. However is it true that Pope Innocent IV in “Ad Extirpande” authorized the use of torture while questioning an individual suspected of having committed a crime?


#12

[quote=Maranatha]The Christians are unfaithful or the Muslims?
[/quote]

I said this in the moslem´s opinion


#13

If the pope did authorize that, then he was going directly against Christian teaching. We can investigate that and feel free to post links, but even if Catholic individuals have done wrong it is not because they are following Church teaching to do this wrong.

Jesus said, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)

So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love (Cor 13:13)

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you. (Luke 6:27)

So I stress again, violence is not a teaching of the Church. Did Jesus retaliate, and kill people?

God Bless
Scylla


#14

I live and work in Saudi Arabia. I feel sorry for those Indian and Pakistani Christians. Most of them work as cooly here. The Saudis don’t treat them well either. Majority of them don’t live on western compounds like I do. So, they are “exposed” to the local population. When you gather to worship, you are putting yourself at risk. Even living in a western compound, we all have to worship the Lord secretly. The only Middle Eastern countries that I know there are Catholic churches around are in Bahrain and Dubai. They are regarded as “sin” cities over here.

Seriously, I would love to go to Jerusalem and visit all of the holy sites, but I just can’t. If you travel to Israel, don’t expect to come back to Saudi Arabia.


#15

[quote=scylla]If the pope did authorize that, then he was going directly against Christian teaching.
[/quote]

You may also look this up in the New Catholic Encyclopedia (Green Book) under “torture”. And you will see in that article that the Pope did authorise the use of torture to extract confessions.


#16

[quote=stanley123]I am very much opposed to the use of torture by either side. However is it true that Pope Innocent IV in “Ad Extirpande” authorized the use of torture while questioning an individual suspected of having committed a crime?
[/quote]

In 2,000 years of history this is all you could find? By the way, could you please provide a link?


#17

Compare and contrast.

  • From the Abu Hauraira Hadith Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:*
    Allah’s Apostle was asked, “What is the best deed?” He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, “To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah’s Cause.” The questioner again asked, “What is the next (in goodness)?” He replied, “To perform Hajj (Pilgrim age to Mecca) 'Mubrur, (which is accepted by Allah and is performed with the intention of seeking Allah’s pleasure only and not to show off and without committing a sin and in accordance with the traditions of the Prophet).”

From Matthew 22: 37-40:
When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together,and one of them [a scholar of the law] tested him by asking,"Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest? "He said to him, "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.


#18

Warfare is only one interpretation of the concept of jihad. The root meaning of effort never disappeared. Jihad may be an inward struggle (directed against evil in oneself) or an outward one (against injustice). A Hadith defines this understanding of the term. It recounts how Muhammad, after a battle, said “We have returned from the lesser jihad (al-jihad al-asghar) to the greater jihad (al-jihad al-akbar).” When asked “What is the greater jihad?,” he replied “It is the struggle against oneself.”[16] Although this Hadith does not appear in any of the authoritative collections, it has had enormous influence in Islamic mysticism (Sufism).

Sufis understand the greater jihad as an inner war, primarily a struggle against the base instincts of the body but also resistance to the temptation of polytheism. Some Sufi writers assert that Satan organizes the temptation of the body and the world to corrupt the soul. Abu Hamid Muhammad al-Ghazali (1059-1111), probably the most important figure in Islam’s development after the prophet, describes the body as a city, governed by the soul, and besieged by the lower self. Withdrawal from the world to mystical pursuits constitutes an advance in the greater jihad. Conversely, the greater jihad is a necessary part of the process of gaining spiritual insight.[17] By the eleventh century Sufism had become an extremely influential, and perhaps even the dominant, form of Islamic spirituality. To this day, many Muslims conceive of jihad as a personal rather than a political struggle. But Sufism provoked opposition, most importantly from Ibn Taymiya, who condemned many aspects of Sufism which he believed contradicted the Shari`a. His disciple Ibn al-Qayyim al-Jawziya (1292-1350) explicitly condemned the doctrine of greater jihad, discarding as a deliberate fabrication the Hadith that originates this concept.

Thus did three main views of jihad coexist in premodern times: the classical legal view of jihad as a compulsory, communal effort to defend and expand Dar al-Islam; Ibn Taymiya’s notion of active jihad as an indispensable feature of legitimate rule; and the Sufi doctrine of greater jihad. It is no surprise that the disagreement over jihad continues in the modern era.


#19

[quote=Ahimsa]Warfare is only one interpretation of the concept of jihad.
[/quote]

Obviously a debateable point in the Islamic world. Somehow it seems those who take its meaning to be an “outward” struggle are ruling the day.


#20

[quote=exoflare]Isn’t this quote really from a hadith, though?

“Muhammad said, ‘When Allah created Adam, He hit Adam on the right shoulder and the white race sprang out, while the black race came from the left shoulder. Allah said to those of the right hand to Paradise you are and to the left to hell you go.’” (Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 1, no. 119)

The only other thing I’d have to say here is that my first roommate in college was a Muslim. He told me that as a kid his parents didn’t want him going out to play in the sun so frequently and told him, “Why do you go out in the sun so much? You used to be so fair-skinned.” It didn’t make since to me then but it jumped out at me later when I started to learn more about Islam.
[/quote]

Hey exoflare

I have never heard of the “hadith” you mentioned. It directly contradicts the Quran. If any hadith contradicts the Quran, it is considered fabricated, and is thrown out like garbage.

Islam is a religion of justice. THe Quran CLEARLY states that no one is better than any one else, except if they have more piety. THe prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) said that no arab is superior than a non-arab and no white man is superior over black.


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