Is it possible to join the Catholic Church and support gay marriage and abortion rights?

Hello it’s your favorite liberal again! :smiley:

So as you know from my numerous posts, I support gay marriage and abortion rights. And none of the responses I’ve received from you have changed my mind on the issue.

We also know that thanks to years of liberal education, millenials are definitely liberal and will slowly take charge of this world, and that it will become increasingly difficult to survive as a cultural conservative in an increasingly postmodern, liberal culture. Imagine coming out as a conservative at work, or among friends. And many women will refuse to date conservative men.

However, I do agree with the Catholic Church’s teachings on spiritual matters, such as the fallacy of Sola Scriptura, the importance of sacraments, and the Catholic Church being the original founded by Jesus.

I find myself agreeing with the speeches of Protestant converts to Catholicism such as John Martignoni and Scott Hahn, among others.

Though I am a former Protestant and an agnostic now, I don’t see myself staying one for long, simply because I admit I’m a coward and I am afraid of the uncertainties of life, and need something to lean on.

However, conversion to Catholicism would also mean the loss of most of my friends, who are Protestant.

Since after months of debating you guys, I’ve determined that nothing will change my mind on the abortion and gay marriage issues, is it possible to just be a quiet convert to Catholicism and still support abortion and gay marriage rights (after all, that’s what most who claim Catholicism are doing anyway)?

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#

Please point me to a paragraph. I remember the CCC saying they must be opposed, but is this a mortal sin that will deny me salvation? Can I still be a practicing Catholic in a state of grace despite not following that paragraph?

Posting this in “Family Life”?? Okay, fine.

Well, in charity, I will assume you’re not trolling.

You could convert to the Faith…basically, as long as you can truthfully say that what is said in the 3 historic creeds (the Apostle’s Creed, NIcene Creed, and Athanasian Creed) are what you believe in your heart of hearts.

Having said that, there is a little thing in canon law that says:
Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firmly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
English translation of the pertinent sections:

If something is written in the Scriptures or if it is part of Sacred Tradition (with a big “T”), if it is an approved part of a formal doctrinal declaration by an Ecumenical Council, if it has been formally and infallibly defined by the Pope…you have to believe it with Divine and Catholic faith.

Divine and Catholic Faith means that you believe it down in the depth of your heart and do not doubt it.

If you, after you are baptized or received into the Church, obstinately deny or obstinately doubt a truth that is to be held with Divine and Catholic Faith then you are a heretic. Obviously, being a heretic would place you in a state of mortal sin.

If your heresy is manifested in the external forum (i.e., you start proclaiming that your views and not the Church’s views on a matter that must be held with Divine and Catholic Faith…or, particularly, if you start trying to win Catholics over to your point of view), then you will suffer laetae sentintiae (i.e., automatic) excommunication. BTW, laetae sentintiae excommunication happens from the point when the act was committed. No formal decree, ecclesiastical trial, or anything else is needed. It just happens.

And, well, guess what? The Church’s teachings on abortion and homosexual conduct both fall within the realm of those things that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith.

So if you are received into the Church, basically, you go virtually immediately into a state of mortal sin. Since you don’t plan on repenting of holding those positions, it’s not something that can validly be absolved in confession. And if you start trying to convince people to agree with you, you are automatically excommunicated.

Bottom line is: for the sake of your own soul, you need to resolve your issues with abortion and same sex “marriage” before considering entering into the Church.

Maybe what you could do is to try to understand, on a theological basis, “why” the Church teaches as she does. Go at it from the perspective, “I know that the Church teaches this, I know that the Church is the Bride of Christ and is right on these issues. Maybe if I understand why, I can come to believe as the Church believes.”

No.

I am part of the millennial generation and I ***am***seeking a conservative man, so that point is irrelevant unless you have facts to back up that claim. It’s just coming across as another liberal trying to push their own agenda/opinions on every one.

I fail to see how converting to Catholicism would make you lose your Protestant friends. I have many Protestant, Jewish, and agnostic friends–along with my Christian ones. I interact with gay people daily. One of my closest and dearest friends happens to be gay, but I don’t believe in gay marriage. I bet you’re friends with many people who are not virgins (not married) but you don’t have to cut them out of your life for being fornicators. We’re all sinners in one way or another. Nobody is perfect except for God.

The Catholic Church is not a cafeteria. Just because some who are already in the Church treat it that way, doesn’t make it right.

So you can’t be convinced… maybe share why you support those two things?

Sure you can join the Church as everyone member of the Church is a sinner. Mortal sin, however, would separate you from God. Three conditions must be present… it must be serious, fully knowing and willfully violation of God’s law. That would present a problem when it comes to receiving the Eucharist.

I find this a little bit confusing. How can you be concerned with being in a state of Grace, yet you’re willingly and openly rejecting the Church’s very definitive teachings on two very important subjects?

I’m not trying to be snarky, but on the one hand you’re asking about salvation but on the other (and at the same time) you’re saying you’re not going to change you’re mind. Why are the current secular mores more important than the teachings of the Church you wish to join? :shrug:

I’d say your moving in the right direction. But it seems that you are rather wring in thinking the world is just going to be a gay abortion liberal party someday. Yes it will ebb and flow as it has for all of history.

The church will remain a rock amongst the ever changing tide of politics and fads and trendiness.

So, I would say start making the journey into the church. Pray fervently and eventually discuss with others in person at your parish about these things.

The church is Christ’s church and his truth. It seems you see that, so I’d encourage you to try and see the church’s stance in these issues and appreciate them.

As for your Protestant friends, if they desert you they weren’t really your friends. Through my conversion I lost a few, but maintained most.

Sincerely ,

A conservative catholic millennial. (And there are lots of us )

Because, as I have written several times, I don’t support it personally, but support it politically, and I don’t believe the Bible has much to say about it politically. I also believe Christ wouldn’t have cared either way, and that it is compassionate and loving to grant these civil rights to women and gays, and hateful and unloving to deny them.

As they say, “What would Jesus do?”

I believe the Magisterium needs to change or the Church will lose relevance in just one more generation. If not, the Church will still survive, but as a remnant, tiny church.

In addition, it’s very possible to interpret the Bible and determine that God doesn’t have much to say about homosexuality as a sin at all.

I’ve written this several times…

[quote=runwaymodel]I fail to see how converting to Catholicism would make you lose your Protestant friends. I have many Protestant, Jewish, and agnostic friends–along with my Christian ones. I interact with gay people daily. One of my closest and dearest friends happens to be gay, but I don’t believe in gay marriage. I bet you’re friends with many people who are not virgins (not married) but you don’t have to cut them out of your life for being fornicators. We’re all sinners in one way or another. Nobody is perfect except for God.
[/quote]

I used to have gay bosses. There are several gays at my work. One of my best friends came out as gay. In fact, this is another reason why I just can’t see Jesus denying civil rights to these people. What have they done so wrong? How does it honestly affect me, not just theoretically, but in real life?

I do know that my Protestant friends would be disappointed, and many of them would just forget about me with the passage of time, as we go to different churches and lose touch.

I do know that Protestant churches run circles around Catholic parishes when it comes to building community. (I’ve written about this so many times.)

In one word: NO

Sorry, but abortion is the slaughter of INNOCENT unborn children, who are made in the image and likeness of GOD!

And marriage is reserved for ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN.

“pro choice” and “pro gay marriage” is NOT compatible with Catholicism.

It sounds like if you are personally opposed than you are more or less in line with the church. I would hope your political views would align with your personal views . :shrug:

So, First, let me ask you…

do you believe unmarried couples sin when they have sex ?

Second, don’t judge the community till u get in. Perhaps I am just lucky but I have found tremendous community in my parish.

=CaliLobo;11791422]Hello it’s your favorite liberal again! :smiley:

Sorry, but I’m partial to Kirsten Powers, Bob Beckel and one of my dear friends who was in #occupy :smiley:

And none of the responses I’ve received from you have changed my mind on the issue.

Possibly a sign of refusal to seriously consider the facts and a personal insistence to live by emotions and based on what is cool and popular.

We also know that thanks to years of liberal education, millenials are definitely liberal and will slowly take charge of this world,

:rotfl:

Don’t believe everything you hear in school.

Seems to me like China, Russia and radical Islam have a big head start. I think a lot of these millennials are afraid of them. :sadyes:

and that it will become increasingly difficult to survive as a cultural conservative in an increasingly postmodern, liberal culture.

Imagine coming out as a conservative at work, or among friends.

It depends on where you are talking about. Parts of Western Europe are well on their way to sharia law, for instance. Think it would be difficult to “come out” against so-called gay “marriage”?

And many women will refuse to date conservative men.

:rotfl:

Actually, the women I know are not interested in liberal men who wish they were women or men who cannot lead and are afraid of offending people all the time.

Also, I’ve interacted with a lot of women, even more liberal educated women go for traditional (ie conservative) men.

Let me also put it like this: social conservatives are having kids. That happens with men and women. Liberal secularists, however, are not having that many kids.

However, I do agree with the Catholic Church’s teachings on spiritual matters, such as the fallacy of Sola Scriptura, the importance of sacraments, and the Catholic Church being the original founded by Jesus.

I find myself agreeing with the speeches of Protestant converts to Catholicism such as John Martignoni and Scott Hahn, among others.

Good to hear!

Though I am a former Protestant and an agnostic now, I don’t see myself staying one for long, simply because I admit I’m a coward and I am afraid of the uncertainties of life, and need something to lean on.

That’s what Jesus is for. :thumbsup: He died on the cross for all of us.

However, conversion to Catholicism would also mean the loss of most of my friends, who are Protestant.

Why would that be the case?

Since after months of debating you guys, I’ve determined that nothing will change my mind on the abortion and gay marriage issues,

It’s easy to issue such absolutes when you are young.

is it possible to just be a quiet convert to Catholicism and still support abortion and gay marriage rights (after all, that’s what most who claim Catholicism are doing anyway)?

I am sorry that you have been scandalized in that sense. Please do not use the “everyone else does it” excuse.

Catholics who support abortion and so-called gay “marriage” are asked to excuse themselves from Holy Communion. Many of them do not heed this advice, unfortunately.

Persons who receive Communion in a state of mortal sin are doing themselves no good and as one priest said “it’s like putting food in a dead body”.

When you embrace the Catholic Church, you embrace all of its teachings. If you can’t do that, you cannot bring others to the truths we hold. We all need to be united in one mind, in the one God. Would I want a Catholic to support gay marriage and abortion rights? No, I would not. Examine your conscience. You need to participate in RCIA and get more instruction in these issues before you make a valid decision. Learn more about Pro-Life. My opinion.

No.

No also to this. I myself am a millennial, and I agree with all that the Church teaches. Yes, all of it, from Humanae Vitae to Rerum Novarum, and I know several other millennials who would say the same.

2Cor5:7-10 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Forget the church for a moment. Do you think your views on those topics please Christ? Do you think he will agree with those views when you are before him an eyeblink after you stop breathing?

There’s what you need to concern yourself with, the rest will fall into place.

Good Luck.

So the Catholic Church, in your opinion, is “hateful” and unloving"?

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. (2333)

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

And quite frankly, this is the first post of yours I think I’ve ever read, so forgive me for not having a vast knowledge of your personal take on these issues.

I love the simplistic expression here. There’s really nothing to discuss or say, the answer is no.

Really :confused:

Do you really respect yourself and your strongly held beliefs so little that you would stand before a faith community and state … :nope:

“I believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church teaches, believes and proclaims to be revealed by God.”

Because that is what you would be doing - whether you consider ‘joining’ quietly or not … and if you fear the unknown God [or whatever it is you alluded to] - will God accept your lie? :frowning:

:shrug:

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