Is it required for Mary to be Sinnless?


#1

Was or is it required that Mary be Sinnless, in order for God to bring Jesus forth.

“Man shall not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.” - Deut. 8:3. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for teaching, reproofing, correcting, and training up in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” - 2 Tim. 3:15,16. God didn’t give us a book for nothing.

  How sin is visited on the fathers blood line by God. 

Iniquity is passed down by the father. Several times the Old Testament states that “The LORD is slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of fathers upon children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation” (Ex 20:5; 34:7; Nu 14:18; De 5:9). If sin is passed by the father, then it was not necessary that Jesus’ mother was sinless, but that His Father was sinless. So through a Heavenly, Holy Father God, Jesus not only has His deity, but also His ability to remain sinless in His humanity.
So this means that all people who have a human father is born in a state of sin.

    God's promise - a savior from a sinful woman. 

So the LORD God said to the serpent:
"…And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."

God’s first promise of a Redeemer included the fact that He would be the Seed of Eve, the woman who had committed the first sin. Eve needed a Redeemer as well as any of us. Likewise, Mary needed Christ to be her Redeemer to be saved. “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” - John 14:6.

How could Mary be sinless if she was not conceived of sinless parents? How then could her parents be born sinless if her grandparents were not also sinless? How could her grandparents be born sinless if her great-grandparents…and so on…and so on…

Thus it is proved that Mary is accountable to the sin of her forfathers. Generational Sin which comes from origianal sin.
But that is not the sin that Jesus came to save us from.

                         The Song of Mary

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.
And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the might from their thrones,
And exalted the lowly.
He has filled the hungry with good things,
And the rich He has sent away empty.
He has helped His servant Israel.
In remembrance of His mercy.
As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and to his seed forever.

  • Luke 1:46-55 -

    Mary confesses she has a savior. Only Sinners have a savior and her Savior is Jesus. Mary has declared that she is saved and that can’t happen onless you are saved from SIN. Whos sin is she saved from her own personnel sin. Salvation comes from our on personnel repentance of our sins.
    No sinless person needs a Savior. Clearly this statement implies that Mary was a sinner just like the rest of us (Rom. 3:23).

Doubtless she was one of the noblest ladies ever to grace this planet; nevertheless, she was not without sin (cf. 1 Jn. 1:8,10).

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Romans 3:22-24
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

In the above passages God makes sure all knows that Mary is indeed a sinner, ALL have sinned. The Holy Spirit God does not speak of Jesus in this ALL because he does not boost of himself.


#2

Many think that in order for Jesus to be sinless there is a need for Mary to be sinnless. But actually Jesus is formed in Mary by the Holy Spirit with out sin. On the other hand Mary was not formed sinnless in the womb by the holy spirit. Actually the Holy Spirit created this new from of Adam. The origianl Adam had no earthly father. Jesus has not earthly father thus he is born with out the effects of generational sin and he did not sin in his lifetime. Did the Holy spirit even use any part of Mary, Actually we can’t prove he did or did not. But we know with out a dought that Jesus was born to a virgin. And we know that she was redeemed from Sin and claimed the Lord as her savior and that means she had to have her own person sin. Does this make Mary any less of a wonderful and noble woman of God indeed not.
"…for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost ", So Jesus entered into the world thur Mary but is not of Mary.
Jesus is created by the Holy Spirit only in Mary. No sex involved period. He is a new form of Adam.


#3

God is perfect and with Him nothing is impossible:

And here comes the prayer:

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.

Here are some articles for you to read, and I hope you will find it helpful to your questions:

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm20.htm
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp


#4

It is generally considered bad form to answer your own posts.

You have this all messed up.

  1. The Blessed Virgin needed a savior because of original sin. Christ is still her savior as she obviously knew.

  2. There is no actual Catholic dogma that says that the Blessed Virgin lived a sinless life, therefore your whole premise collapses as a straw man argument.

  3. It may be possible that Our Lady did live a sinless life since no one else I can imagine has ever had a more intimate personal relationship with the Lord.

  4. Your scripture references not withstanding, there is
    a. No scripture that specifically shows that the Blessed Virgin sinned at some point, and
    b. No scripture that specifically shows that the Blessed Virgin did not sin

So again, you choose to argue over speculation.

One major problem with your premise is that you seem to inadvertently deny the humanity of Christ, the fact is that Jesus took his humanity right down to the DNA from the Blessed Virgin.

In order to be the Messiah He had to be both 100% Man and God. Anything less is heresy.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.


#5

Idoltery is to atribute to another the quality that only God has.
Only God is sinnless.


#6

Please look up the definition of Idolatry
m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?idolatry
(the worship of a physical object as a God)

Are any Angels sinless?

Is a cup of water sinless? Does that make it an Idol.

Again as in the other thread I invite you to renounce satan and all his works,

God Bless
Scylla


#7

I renounce satan 100 percent will you renounce worshiping Mary.


#8

No Catholic worships Mary, so I do not need to renounce what I have never done, nor has any Catholic ever.

I will reassure you and speak for all Catholics that we reject the worship of any creature, including Mary.

Please describe Catholic worship if you are going to contest that, as you cannot then please retract the accusation as it is clearly based on false witness.

I will apologize, if you describe Catholic worship which will prove your accusation wrong.

In Christ
Scylla


#9

Catholics renounce Satan 100% but anyone who continues to spread falsehoods obviously doesn’t. You have been told countless times that Catholics do not worship Mary, yet you continue to spew this lie. Frankly, Mr. Smith, your hateful drivel is getting just a little tiresome. Perhaps you need to examine your own conscience before attacking us.


#10

You might want to do some research on the three types of worship.


#11

Can you describe how Catholics perform latria?

As you can see I am aware, please don’t dodge the question either you know or don’t know and if you don’t please retract all your baseless, cowardly and dishonest posts regarding Catholics and Mary.

If you can, I will apologize and you will be proven wrong.

Scylla


#12

Mr. Smith is unable to help himself in this matter. He has posted/started many threads here in CA, which spew lies against the Catholic Church. He has been corrected repeatedly. Unfortunately, he simply is unable to see the truth. His eyes are shut. Instead, he simply goes to anti-Catholic websites, copies material from there and then posts it here, in a ridiculous attempt at sounding intelligent. He is a self-proclaimed “Apostle” who was contacted by God and told to do this . It really is pointless to argue with him. Instead, we should pray for him. Perhaps someday, Mr. Smith will have his eyes opened and his ears unplugged. Then, maybe he will hear and understand the truth when it is offered.


#13

Has God told you that he alone is capable of being sinless? Where? What I read is Christ saying ‘be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect’. It logically follows from this verse that it is in fact possible for human beings to be sinless.

For reasons I will show below, the verses from Paul stating ‘all have sinned’ are not to be taken literally.

  1. What about a baby who dies at the age of 3 days old? Is it sinful?

  2. What about a person who, while physically adult, is mentally undeveloped to the point where they intellectually and emotionally are at the level of a child of a year old?

  3. What sin would you suggest a baby of 3 days old is capable of? Or a person of the mental capacity of a year-old child???

So clearly when Paul says ‘ALL have sinned’, it does NOT mean that literally all people have in fact sinned.

Now let’s look at just one example among the people of the Bible - Enoch, one of the early Patriarchs. He is recorded as having been assumed into heaven. It is NOT recorded that he sinned in any way - the logical implication is because there are no sins of his TO be recorded.

Certainly the Bible goes into great detail about everyone else’s sins, I can’t imagine it would be silent about his if he did indeed sin. And nothing that is imperfect or sinful can enter heaven, so the logical implication is that he indeed was sinless.

So where is it positively stated in the Bible that it is impossible for a human being to be sinless?


#14

That makes no sense. I don’t agree with the “Immaculate Conception” doctrine myself (Orthodox Christians don’t), but the above is equally objectionable. Prior to their fall, Adam and Eve were sinless. The Holy Angels are sinless.


#15

Bump,

Still waiting for Joseph to describe Catholic worship or admit that he is a liar who doesn’t know what Catholic worship is…

You have had all night and the morning to post and you have been on the forums…

Scylla


#16

The thing is that when I give you GODs word on the matter at hand you call GOD a lier not me. You are denouncing his Word not mine. This is rebellion to GOD and his Word not me i am not God i did not author his Word. You will notice i said it is his Word. No men on this earth have a right to add to the Word of God there is a curse for as many as do.
Rebellion to God means you denounce Him and His Words. This is done in sin and conduct unto God. In the conduct of the pagan worship practices that you are claiming are holy it can only be called sin. As you adding mistic association to Mary and atribuating Gods own trates that he alone has you are into pagan idol worship. You have taken the honorable mother of Christ and turned her into a thing of worship instead of worshiping God who is deserving of all honor, worship and praise. Mary did not redeem you, did not die for you, mary did not live for you and she is not a sin offering, she is not a high priest before God, not a virgine anymore, she is not a co-savor, she does not in a matrix as it does not exist, mary does also not a queen of heaven. These are all pictures of you many hundreads forms of worship unto Mary. Your church make sinners God and denounce God and his Christ by doing so and this is sin. The only apostate in these rooms are those who practice such pagan froms of the faith. You will not find any teaching of these things taught by Jesus or the apostles because this is accult teaching not supported by the scripture of God. As a result millions of people have died because of the catholic church involvement in the satan accult.

And that means you are not following God. You anger should be directed at your self yeat you are angry at hearing the truth and reject the truth of GOD and his word. So you attack the messanger and him who has given the Message. There is a way with man that seems right in his own eyes. Are you of Christ or of a different from christ. It can’t be shown that you are of christ period. For to be of christ is to walk away from falsehood. Yeat you embrace false hood and would murder even to support your false hood. Christ said the light of his Word would expose the false things of this world. And I have.


#17

:thumbsup: Thanks for the post.


#18

So is this an admission that you do not understand Catholic worship?

Sure I love the Bible and see how you like to attack but have no answer that describes Catholic worship.

Please stop dodging the question. I am not angry but as a Christian I am required to correct the sinner, and I am pointing out your dishonesty and will continue to do so until you answer the question.

Can you describe official Catholic worship?

Scylla


#19

You may not spell that good, But you speak the truth! Alleluia!

God Bless you and may the Holy Spirit continue to give you the boldness preach the Gospel.


#20

This is a post that shows no proof and love. Show us where one speaks of truth and get banned.:rolleyes:


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