Is it "theft" to keep high-value items that were abandoned in my home?

part 3
Another straw man is you implying that somewhere I believe in some pauline notion that only some of us have to work on being spiritual. Where did I say that? Where did anything I say imply that I believe that? You imply that I think the fact that I am Catholic give me a “free pass” from Teaching, preaching, witnessing and healing and being a “fisher of man” How is this not a straw man and insulting? It is also kind of a ad hominem attack because you are attacking me personally (about something you do not know whether I even do or not) not attacking a argument that I made. Not to sound puffed up, but I am in fact a teacher at my parish. I help teach those who wish to be Baptized about The Faith before they are Baptized. It is a 8 month process. I try my best to live up to The Faith. You cant be a teacher with out preaching. You do not know how I witness or if I do at all. Catholics believe in The great commission of Matthew 28 16-20. You simply think your “wisdom” of a faith tradition that is only 50 years old at best is “wiser” then 2000 years of wisdom. That is like a teenager telling a wise old grandfather “I KNOW BETTER THEN YOU” of course having been a teenager, I know I use to think I was wiser then I was. I prefer the wisdom of That Church over your faith tradition any day. That is why I converted. God gave us The Bible through The Catholic Church. Do you not think The Holy Spirit would guide that Church to understand it too? Your faith tradition was not even around then, therefore, is not relevant in its interpretations of scripture in so much as in the things it disagrees with to The Church Christ actually started.

I read Ecclesiastes a long time ago, and I love the phrase “Everything is meaningless” it still to this day makes me smile when I hear it. What is your point? I agree that we should place out trust in God no wealth.

Finally… are you saying you need your laptop and or phone then? Therefore, it is not a high value item? That sounds like picking and choosing to me

1st Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

The Church teaches The Truth, per scripture.

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I thank you and the Holy Spirit for your well thought-out responses!

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What does the history of the Church have anything to do with the words of our Lord Jesus Christ Savior of the World???
What did Jesus say about our expensive possessions?

Luke 12:15 – “And he said to them, “Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”

1 John 3:17 – “But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?”
Matthew 19:16, 21-22 – “And behold, a man came up to Him (Jesus), saying, ‘Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?’ Jesus said to him, ‘If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven, and come, follow Me.’ When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.’”

Matthew 6:19-21 – “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

Matthew 6:24 – “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”

1 Timothy 6:9-10 – “But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.”

Matthew 16:26 – “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?”

The Bible is clear on material possessions. If they are a higher priority in your life then God is, repent! God gives blessings to us materially so that we can be a blessing to others, not to maintain a luxurious lifestyle to benefit our [greed]

***Not related to the topic at hand Side note: So you mention Emperor Theodosious. Do you know what he did to the pagans? HE WAS A MASS MURDERER! That is all fine and dandy that he brought forth Trinitarian Christianity but what did he do afterwards? KILLINGS all in the name of ???Jesus Christ??? Jesus preached about “love thy enemy”, “turn the other cheek”, help the poor, not gain riches & a high status to control others, so on and so forth…

You are saying that I am arguing something that I am not. Nobody here is saying that it is okay to make material things a higher priority in life then Christ. Are you purposely ignoring that? Re read all my posts. My only argument is that Jesus never said the He would prefer that we not own high value things. The most valuable thing I own is my truck worth maybe $2000 because it gets me to work everyday, So I think I can hardly be accused of such a thing anyways. You are grasping at straws just like Denise.

Church history is important and somewhat related to what Jesus said because we can look at how The Early Church interpreted scripture and Christs words to know what is a new doctrine invented by modern denominations and not believed by The Early Church founded by Christ. THAT, is part of why it is important. Because Jesus did not leave us instructions for every single little thing. He left us a Church (Matthew 16- 18) which The Holy Spirit lives in and helps discern The Truth. If it were not for the study of Church history, nobody would even know where The Bible came from. It did not fall from The Sky and The Bible does not even say how it came into being. The Bible needs interpretation, that is where The Church comes into play too. And what better Church then the one God actually founded, which we can easier identify when we study Church history. Protestant Christianity did not exist 2000 years ago, one can learn this by studying history because they do not talk about this fact in sunday school

So maybe Emperor Theodosious was a mass murderer, The Catholic Church has not declared him a saint. All I simply did was point out that Emperor Constantine and Arian Christianity did not prevail because it supports the fact that he was not the founder of The Catholic Church because Catholics would be arian if he was. But neither was Theodocious the founder. The Father of the protestant faith tradition Martin Luther seemed to hate Jews, called for the burning of their synagogues and even went as far as possibly advocating for their murder. Emporer Theodocious did not found our faith. Martin Luther, in a way, did found yours. If you look through history you will find protestants just as guilty as Catholics of killing in The name of God. Catholic persecution in England, Ireland, the salem witch trials, the peasant revolt of Germany, the list goes on and on. THAT is why it is important to know church history too.

1st Timothy 6:17 17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

Paul says how Rich Christians should act. That is good enough for me, as much as it is not good enough for you. Nobody here is saying what you think they are saying regarding material things.

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You can use as many logical fallacies as you please but here is an important question to think about. Did Jesus support the rich?

A man cannot have a life goal of getting rich and be a Christian. The greatest goal the Creator gives to man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. It is not to get rich. One can indeed be rich and be a Christian, but one cannot worship God and money. Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and do not worry what else gets added to you in this life, whether much or little. The reward that Christians seek is eternal life, the infinite and certain reward for all who believe in Jesus and obey Him as King.
only argument is that Jesus never said the He would prefer that we not own high value things.
If Jesus told the rich man to leave all of his possessions behind and follow him, why would it be alright to hold on to high-value things? Are you and the others that support rich people the exception?

part 1
Once again, you are saying that I am arguing something that I am not even arguing. I agree that one should not spend their life prioritizing getting rich over God. I know all the Bible verses you quoted a post ago. I would ask to you go up and read post 95, I believe, where I specifically state that everything we own belongs to God and we are simply stewards of it. One again you are grasping straw and you can accuse me of logical fallacies all you want, but you cant point out anything I said that is a fallacy.

I am not rich nor would I say that I “support the rich” I do not judge when if someone worked hard and earned a lot of money. You appear to be envious of people with wealth or something. Keep in mind we are to judge everyone equally whether they are wealthy or not

Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly. " (Leviticus 19:15)

You are certainly not doing this. You cannot even accept my word, at face value, that I agree that putting money and material things over God is wrong, so how would you believe it that there are probably people out there with money, who also believe in putting God before money. A poor person can be just as greedy with the little they have as a rich person can be will the much that they have.
Deuteronomy 8:18 But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your ancestors, as it is today.

Ecclesiastes 5:18–19 Here is what I have seen: It is good and fitting for one to eat and drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labor in which he toils under the sun all the days of his life which God gives him; for it is his heritage. As for every man to whom God has given riches and wealth, and given him power to eat of it, to receive his heritage and rejoice in his labor—this is the gift of God.

part 2
Anyone can take a few passages from scripture and make the Bible seem to be saying anything they want. We need to read it as a whole. And if parts of The Bible say that wealth is a gift from God (But it belongs to God) then it is true. If parts of The scripture say that one must be on guard against greed and the love of money and material things, then that is also true. What scripture does not say is that just because someone owns a high value Item they are somehow not living their faith as good as someone who owns nothing of value. So we can see from reading The Bible as a whole (combine the verses I quoted and the verses you quoted) and see that it contradicts scripture to say that “Jesus would not want someone to own high value items” That is too black and white. If they are not greedy and truly love God, tithe 10% and even donate to Charity then what is the problem? I do not judge such a person, but you seem to. Which sounds a lot like Judas when that expensive perfume was being used to anoint the feet of our Lord in Matthew 26 6-13.

Jesus told the rich man to sell all his possessions and follow him, not because having many possessions is wrong. The fact that the man was sad about this “because he had many nice things” shows that, indeed, the man was too attached to his wealth. Your name is “Jesus reads hearts” and indeed Jesus read that mans heart and knew this. And leaving it all behind is what was needed for that man. That does not mean everyone needs to sell all they own and that high value possession are inherently wrong.

You have not proved either by scripture or reason that Jesus would not want us to own high value items. All you have demonstrated by scripture is that we must be on guard against putting money and material possession above God. And I agree with that, despite your refusal to believe me. I have demonstrated that there is nothing inherently wrong with having a “high value item” I mean, come on, your phone or laptop that you are using to reply to me are considered “high value items” in third world countries! So why do you own them if you are so sure Jesus would not want you to have them? Why are you a exception?

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PT 1:
OMG, Laughing Boy… I don’t know if I have the strength to address all the issues you bring up as I am recovering from my 400+ mile journey on my Honda Shadow. But, anyway, let’s see… Thank you for your compliments. I must say that I am not in favor of the Church for various reasons, but since this is a forum where we are supposed to discuss issues and accuse/defend I don’t see why I have to be a big fan, honestly. I studied with the Jehovah’s Witnesses for over two years for the purpose of understanding their viewpoints. They were happy to discuss their “religion” with me even though I would continually present opposing views. Dan (one of the Elders) would say things like, “This passage will be your favorite because it’s where Satan accuses God of lying.” They were kind-of busting my chops in a playful way, but that’s just how I operate. As a result of my Bible studies with the brothers, I learned a great deal, and so here I am in the Catholic forums, and you have already explained the finer points of Constantine’s involvement in Christianity, so now I GOT something out of it already. Why can’t THAT be my motive and my “agenda”? I don’t know everything about Roman emperors, primarily because I really don’t care that much. As I said before, it’s weird that “Roman” Catholicism is okay with being associated with these men who considered themselves to be gods and behaved in surprisingly cruel ways (including Theodosious!).

With regards to your statement that your organization allows independent interpretation of scripture as long as it doesn’t conflict with the OFFICIAL interpretations is the same thing as saying that - in some cases - you are not allowed to use your own judgement, even if it is reasonable and based on solid facts/evidence. So, NO, you are occasionally banned from thinking for yourself. Not being able to think for yourself is extremely dangerous in certain situations, especially when you hand over your free will to another individual, regardless of how high and mighty he may appear. Notice that I didn’t mention high and mighty females, for OBVIOUS reasons, LOL! Are there any “high and mighty” women in charge of what we call in JW-speak your “org”?

An example of how it is dangerous to not think for yourself and allow the authorities to think for you is when parents deny blood transfusions to their children because they believe that Jehovah is opposed to it. So the kid(s) die, Mom and Dad cry, and the elders pat them on the back for doing a great job while whispering, “Now, make sure you don’t let people see you cry too much because it would show others that you don’t have faith in Jehovah.” THIS is the result of handing your brain over to another fallible human who thinks he/ (dare I say SHE?) knows better than you. JWs think that THEY are the only faith that has the truth, and their leaders generate history books that demonstrate how Jehovah chose THEM over all other groups. I have heard this kind of talk before.

PT 2:
If Constantine hadn’t worked so hard to promote Christianity, it wouldn’t be as big as it is today, so the “layman’s” explanation that he deserves most of the credit is valid. The details are seen by the majority as being inconsequential, unless you are a scholar who specializes in this niche subject. I get the Trinity vs. Arias thing, and already knew about the big fight that occurred at the First Council.

I can’t say that I agree with your idea of insisting that, rather than having a “Jesus-and-me” relationship with Christ, it is essential to have a “Jesus-and-me-and-the-Authorities” relationship instead. The Jehovah’s Witnesses use the EXACT same Bible verse (telling about the Ethiopian) to brainwash people into thinking that it’s impossible to understand scripture without inserting their “Governing Body” into the equation. It’s an exact parallel! I don’t set out to be anti-Catholic; I’m just anti-BS!

If canyon-riding on my bike and owning a computer is a sin, then I suppose I’m guilty. None of us measure up, successfully, to the ideal. HOWEVER, it is not like we don’t have an ideal in place to measure up against. Jesus, in my opinion, is the most accurate measure of a Christ-ian, simply because he IS the Christ. Everyone else who writes about him or who preceded him is peripheral. Your experts may tell you a different story, but that’s the way I see it because I choose to use my OWN brain, avoiding the pitfalls of acting otherwise. I respect and consider what “authorities” say, but I ultimately make up my own mind, as it is not uncommon for well-meaning people to be just plain WRONG and misguided. In JW-talk we are “imperfect” people.

Mother Theresa is known for wandering around among the poor and needy. We always see pictures that were taken of her ministering to dirty, sickly folk who are practically dead or half-starving to death. The images we see are always the same and convey a message: This is your ideal: Be like Mother Theresa, and you will be like Christ! Catholic charities promote this message: We must give to the poor and support the “last” because the Bible says they will become the “first”. The first (in this world) is obviously the rich and famous, while the “last” is clearly those who are without many worldly possessions and who are unimportant, by the standards of secular society. When Satan offered Jesus dominion and ownership over everything he could see from a high vantage point, Jesus refused. Would Donald Trump refuse? Absolutely not. Would the “rich young man” refuse? No way! The lesson we learn from this passage is: Don’t sell out to the Devil just so you can gain riches. How hard is it for wealthy ones to resist temptation and NOT bow down to Satan? Well, it’s as hard as it is to get a camel through the eye of a needle. Whether this is hyperbole or literal description of getting a camel through a small opening, the general conclusion is the same for both interpretations. Other parts of the Bible were written by worldly kings and, as I said before, God didn’t even WANT kings to be set up over the Israelites.

Part 3:
Just because many famous individuals were involved with the Church and some of them were considered to be wise is an example of 2 fallacies: bandwagon and “appeal to authority”, respectively. The long history of Catholicism is filled with things that I can’t even mention, lest I be charged with “vandalizing the Catholic forums”. So, ya, there is a long history, but of what? Are there several major things that the Church has since apologized for? We literally CANNOT even go there, as mention of certain historical facts is almost always off limits here.

Anyway, I appreciate the time you spent composing your long reply. I think it is a great thing that you are teaching, albeit internally. If you have a religion, it makes sense to “work at it” rather than merely using it as an identity or a social club.

We have two natures: animal and spiritual. The animal nature wants sex, drugs, and all the pleasures money can buy. The spiritual nature is striving for higher things that are (with possibly a few exceptions) contrary to what the “beast” within us seeks. Certain activities that we engage in feed the BEAST, while other activities further our spiritual evolution. Listening to the problems of others and offering advice is a spiritual activity. Obsessing over your stock portfolio is not necessarily bad, but too much of it leads to idolatry, greed, pride, lust, envy, and all those sin categories we are familiar with. Random, selfless acts of kindness and love-based acts from the heart carry no such spiritual liability. That is how you can easily sort it all out. The way Jesus operated is the ideal that we should all strive for, and I think opting out and saying that it is not one’s responsibility to TRY to become more Christlike is absolute nonsense! “Only the ordained upper-management needs to do it.” Rubbish! The ones who are in church, sitting there and repeating the same phrases again and again, like robots, are making ZERO spiritual progress, especially when some aren’t even meditating on the words they are saying.

Let’s just put it like this: If you are a large organization that is holding vast, untold reserves of riches that would even make a dragon gasp, how could you get away with telling individual members of said organization that being rich is unwise and/or a sin? On the contrary, you would want to PROMOTE wealth as a sign of God’s favor, so… that’s where we’re at, at present time.

Please get off your high horse. I am not judging anyone but merely pointing out verses.
I do not judge such a person, but you seem to. Which sounds a lot like Judas when that expensive perfume was being used to anoint the feet of our Lord in Matthew 26 6-13.
You just judged me! If Jesus told the rich man to leave all his possessions behind and follow him, what do you think that means? Does it mean bring a few high-value items with you and leave the rest behind? It is quite simple to understand that verse as well as other related verses. There are no contradictions. I do not appreciate you attacking me like this and basically calling me a “Judas”.
I do not own high-value items. Whatever I have is MAINLY used to help those that need my help. Once again I do not own expensive items. Who are you to point your finger at me and accuse me of not demonstrating what YOU want me to demonstrate. Guess what? If you want to interpret it one way, go for it. I have a different take on it which is actually quite consistent with the other verses I have pointed out. If you see it all in a different light, then by all means, go with that interpretation.
So why do you own them if you are so sure Jesus would not want you to have them?
I do not own them because they are not important to me. I seek spiritual treasure not high-value items. Amen!
If you are going to continue “attacking” me in your next response, I am going to kindly ask you to leave me alone.
Do not gather for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves dig through and steal. But gather for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consume, and where thieves do not dig through and steal.
YES there is something wrong with owning high-value items!

"The beautiful legend of St. Thomas and Gondoforus is told by Mrs. Jameson (“Sacred and Legendary Art”): “When St. Thomas was at Caesarea, our Lord appeared to him and said, ‘The king of the Indies, Gondoforus, hath sent his provost, Abanes, to seek for workmen well versed in the science of architecture, who shall build for him a palace finer than that of the Emperor of Rome. Behold, now I will send thee to him.’ And Thomas went, and Gondoforus commanded him to build for him a magnificent palace, and gave him much gold and silver for the purpose. The king went into a distant country and was absent for two years; and St. Thomas, meanwhile instead of building a palace, distributed all the treasures among the poor and sick; and when the king returned he was full of wrath, and he commanded that St. Thomas should be seized and cast into prison, and he meditated for him a horrible death. Meantime the brother of the king died, and the king resolved to erect for him a most magnificent tomb; but the dead man, after that he had been dead four days, suddenly arose and sat upright, and said to the king, ‘The man whom thou wouldst torture is a servant of God; behold, I have been in Paradise, and the angels showed to me a wondrous palace of gold and silver and precious stones; and they said, ‘This is the palace that Thomas, the architect, hath built for thy brother, King Gondoforus.’ And when the king heard these words, he ran to the prison, and delivered the apostle; and Thomas said to him, ‘Knowest thou not that those who would possess heavenly things have little care for the things of this earth? There are in heaven rich palaces without number, which were prepared from the beginning of the world for those who would purchase the possession through faith and charity. Thy riches, O king, may prepare the way for thee to such a palace, but they cannot follow thee thither.’ ”
Vincent, M. R. (2002). Word studies in the New Testament. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Do not lay up (TEV “store up”) for yourself treasures on earth is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, as are most other translations. Lay up can also be “gather for yourself.” GeCL translates, “Gather no riches here on earth!” The negative command can be translated in a negative or positive form. “You should not store up (or, save)” and “Do not accumulate” are examples of the negative. “Store up for yourself no riches” is an example of a positive command.
Treasures has often been rendered “riches.” It refers to expensive things, wealth, or valuable things that people can own, and it can be translated by any one of these terms.
Newman, B. M., & Stine, P. C. (1992). A handbook on the Gospel of Matthew. UBS helps for translators; UBS handbook series (178). New York: United Bible Societies.

So, Laughing Boy…
I want to tell you an interesting story that you will like about when I was a kid:

When I was about 4 years old, my mom worked in the Chaplains’ Department at the San Diego Naval Academy base. On account of Vatican II, a majority of the extravagant garments were discontinued (for priests), so I was fortunate enough to use one of these robes as a “king” costume (after some alterations by my aunt), and I won the Halloween contest at my preschool… YAAAAAAY for me :smiley: . How about that?!! Also, my uncle is (or I should say, “used to be” as he is technically “dead”)/ …was a Catholic priest, and I used to go around with him all over creation, blessing, uplifting and visiting, giving Mass, and I was even his organist when I visited his church/school in Michigan during summer vacations. He was definitely NOT perfect, but - despite that - was an EXCELLENT minister and did things exactly by the book… like making sure he said his prayers, pacing back and forth and back and forth, holding the Rosary behind his back in both hands. His devotion was stellar, and it actually inspired me! He owned a huge Cadillac, and that was actually the first car I drove by myself (at the wheel), and he let me zip around all over town, illegally LOL! (no license). But small towns are just like that, I guess.

I am no expert on Catholicism, but I DO know a few things about it, especially since I used to go all the time, as Saint Michael’s Church was one block away from the house where I grew up. And I ALSO went to a Southern Baptist church quite a bit. As a member of “Calvary Baptist”, I was a bus captain, went knocking door-to-door, played the piano in Sunday School, and joined a club similar to the Boy Scouts as a youth leader. I have always been a big fan of Jesus in different venues, and I always WILL be. Jesus’ messages found in the NT are full of wisdom and truth, even if you don’t believe Jesus was a real person (but rather a symbolic character). You can ALWAYS put your faith in the “Word(s)” even if you lose faith in organized religion as I have. This is why I am an “independent” and if I wind up going to Hell because of this, then OH WELL! That is my attitude, and I feel that more people should adopt it.

Part 1
Okay, I accept that you are here to learn about our faith. Not necessarily because you “like” out faith but there is nothing wrong with dialogue. I study other faiths viewpoints too.

In regards to the emperors, they made Catholicism first legal, then the official religion of rome. Now, can you imagine how the Christians must have felt at the time? Like God answered their prayers I would imagine. A little boy could have theoretically been alive during the persecution and if he lived to a nice old age he could have also gotten to see his faith become the official religion of a empire that was persecuting him and his parents just 67 years earlier. The Church did not declare those emperors saints. Truthfully I only care in having the facts straight about who did what and who believe what because enemies of the faith often like to say that he was the founder of The Catholic Church. If that was true, we would all be arian not trinitarian.

You have the wrong impression of The Church to say that we are not allowed to think for ourselves because our private interpretations of scripture cannot contradict official Church teaching. First off, The Church have only infallibly interpreted maybe 11 verses of scripture… that leaves tens of thousands of other verses that it has not. There actually is a lot of freedom. It is nowhere like the JWs. And truthfully, you can actually interpret anything anyway you want and The Church will not ex communicate you… you will just be wrong because I can guarantee The Church knows better. No, no offence, but if you come up with a interpretation of scripture and it contradicts The Catholic Churches interpretation… you are certainly less then 100 years old, The Church is 2000 years old. That means it has 1900 years more wisdom then you. Not to mention, God actually gave us The Bible through The Catholic Church. So, it is arrogant to assume that any other person or organization can interpret it better.

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part 2
I did not say “Jesus me and the authorities” I said “Jesus me and The Church” as in other members of The Body of Christ. That includes clergy but it is also just plain old laity like me. You Keep talking about “My Church, my authorities, My experts, my pope” etc etc etc but you appear to be your own “interpreter of scripture, your own pope, your own church” its just that you trust in yourself instead of Christs Church.

There is blood on the hands of The protestants too. Like I said a few posts earlier. Martin Luther, the founder of protestantism Hated Jews and called for their murder in at least one of his writing, to my personal studying. He also did not consider the books of Jude, Revelations, Hebrews and James scripture. He went as far as to say he did not consider them scripture in the bible translation he did but decided to put them in his translation because of all the flack he was getting over wanting to remove them. Your faith tradition has persecuted Catholics in England, Ireland, Germany etc. Murdered women (salem witch trials) murdered native americans, used The Bible to justify the slavery of Africans etc etc etc. White protestant supremacists groups here and in europe use scripture to say they are superior to africans. If you want to really know how your attitude of “I think for myself so I can interpret scripture better then The Church” is most surely wrong, then look at the exact opposite of those white supremacists are Black supremicists groups who use scripture to say that they are superior to whites. What these two groups have in common is that “They think for themselves. They do not need a “organization” to tell them what Jesus means”

The Catholic Church is the biggest Charitable organization in the world no other comes even close. For example… It has around 18,000 clinics 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, As of 2011, the Catholic Church operates the world’s largest non-governmental school system. In 2016, the church supported 43,800 secondary schools and 95,200 primary schools. And this is all just a small sliver of what The Church does with “ALL THE WEALTH OF THE VATICAN” lol. You are in college right? You either have a degree already or will get one soon, correct? You can thank The Catholic Church for that because it is the first organization to push for education being for everyone, not just the rich and it is also the inventor of all those fancy universities that give you your fancy degrees. Another “high value item” perhaps in some people point of view.

I see you posted another post while I was replying to you. A little about yourself. That is awesome. I will certainly read and and reply. However, I cannot do it today. I would love to continue talking. Please, if this thread gets shut down, private message me or ill private message you so we can further dialogue.

Thank you for your reply. We are all adults and very busy. So if it take a while to reply, do not take it as I have left the conversation. There is a lot more I would love to say and reply to but time is sometimes a issue.

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I come to this forum, as I said, to learn and basically entertain myself with writing, which I like to do (mostly when I am in the mood… like today because it’s my birthday!!!). Since I am in such a good mood, I want to say nice, peaceful things to you, and try to convince you that spiritual people REALLY need to stick together, despite our differences. We are fighting against “wickedness in high places” (i.e., evil spirits), and it behooves us to unify and work to defeat the forces of darkness just like humans and Ewoks did in “The Empire Strikes Back”. So even though you are an Ewok (lol… just kidding)… even though we are on different “teams” it is important to not be TOTALLY mean to each other.

My GF and I study religion together as a sort of hobby, and when we did a lot of work with JWs, some of them used to get very irritated, especially when we would get a little bit mean (which we did at times). There are JWs in the family, so it’s a personal issue. Anyway, one of the Jehovahs said, “Why do you think we would want to ‘join’ you after the way you have treated us?” That was a VERY good point! The same can apply to how Catholics are treating us now, on this forum and elsewhere. If you can’t be kind to outsiders and show tolerance and patience, NOBODY is going to want to join up. If a representative of the Church goes around acting snarky and exhibiting a lot of negative tendencies, then somebody like me or my GF might employ fallacious thinking (hasty generalization) and assume that a majority of Catholics act like that. So WHY on earth would we want to be like that too?

I see that getting rich is a big issue (bigger than I thought), and also obedience to the organization is HUGE (which I already knew). You can live your life however you want, bro, so I don’t really give a _____ (“hoot” haha) as it is YOUR life. Actually I’m a “grad” student.

Ill just leave it at this, since do not seem to be having a good discussion anymore, I would rather talk to Denise right now and I do not want you to think I am insulting you when I am merely asking you to think about what you are saying. Lets just leave us as individuals out of it. Ill tell you what I think Jesus means when he said what he said about The rich man and going through the eye of a needle.

Jesus Used hyperboly. He tells us to pluck out our eye and cut off our right hand if they cause us to sin. He is employing hyperboly when he says “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for anyone rich to enter The Kingdom of God” Now, in the OT having wealth was a sign of Gods blessing. I already quoted a few verses showing this so you can go afew posts up and re read them if you like. If you will notice, the apostles reply “Then who can be saved?” Not “Then rich people are damned” or “Then what rich person can be saved” You see, they are saying “If even those who have found favor and been blessed by God cant be saved, then who can?” And Jesus says that ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD.

So, that is a abridged version of part of why I think, but that is why I think it is incorrect to use Matt 19: 24 to say that "Jesus would not want us to have “high value items” Because scripture never says that. All it says (as a whole) is that Wealth is a blessing from God, but that it can also be a stumbling block to heaven, but that it is possible to be saved because all things are possible with God.

You have not convinced me otherwise by anything you have posted and I am certain you will not.

I am not presenting a challenge to you by telling you what I think about the subject, just telling you what I think. I know you think I am wrong. I think you are wrong. We can can leave it at that if you would like. I am just here to talk and occasionally debate, I do not want to make anyone upset.

Happy birthday! Have a great day. Despite our differences you are pretty cool in my eyes in your own way. Ill reply back to you asap.

Hey, thanks! Much appreciated :slight_smile: No need to reply unless U like; I get it. You’re cool too and show the ability to be humble, which is important for anyone and everyone. You bring up some really good points, and I can tell that you have studied a lot, and that your faith is important to you. Keep it up, and - seriously - follow your own path, or whichever one seems right. We are all headed in one direction: toward God, though some may have a more circuitous path. Our Heavenly Father understands our shortcomings and will take that into account when all is said and done. Take care and “be safe”!


When Jesus said to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, that tells me that Jesus is perfectly okay with us owning personal and private property. He was also telling us that we should respect what belongs to others.

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