Is it true the church changed the Sabbath?


#103

Sunday is the Christian version of the Sabbath. It is our Holy Day of the week.

The Jewish Sabbath, itself, is still Saturday (yes, Friday evening to Saturday evening).

Some people call Sunday the “Christian Sabbath.”

Some do not call it that.

It makes no difference either way.


#104

Questions;
1: Was the “last supper” the “Passover”?
2: What day of the month was Jesus. Crucified?
3:Mark 16:1 says that after the Sabbath had past the women went to the market to get sweet spices
Luke 23:56 says they prepared the spices then rested on the Sabbath.
When did these happen?
4: Is Jesus our Passover lamb?


#105
  1. That depends on which Gospel. According to the Synoptics, the Last Supper was the Passover meal. According to John, it was the day before the Passover (the Passover Meal being on Friday evening)

  2. Synoptics: the 15th day of the Jewish month of Nisan. John: 14 Nisan.

  3. Conflicting accounts. Whether they already had the spices or they bought after the Sabbath them doesn’t matter much.

  4. Yes, of course.


#106

If that humble, fledgling, persecuted Church came to observe the Lord’s Day as the most central or important, God did it.


#107

The Commandments reflect divine positive law, but also reflect the underlying natural law. God specifically commanded the Jewish people to keep holy the Sabbath.

The church has the power to bind and loose, and thus dispensed the specific practices that were required of Jews, and gentiles were never bound to those rules. However, the natural law still requires man to rest, and man to worship God; the church, by its own initiative, has thus bound the faithful to observe the Lord’s Day, Sunday.

In parallel, it obligates the faithful to attend Mass on Sunday, but has further relaxed this requirement to freely allow attending Mass on Saturday evening as well.


#108

What is the context of your question, are you debating a Seventh Day Adventist? What prompts your question?


#109

Question 1: The correct answer is “no”.
2: The 13th at the latest.
Explanation:
The blood of the lamb was on the door posts and " cross beam" before they ate the Passover. The Passover was eaten on the 14th so the “Blood of the Lamb” had to be on the Cross befor the beginning of the 14th which began at sunset.

Question 3: No conflict. They rested on one Sabbath, went to the market the next day, return home, prepared the spices then rested the next day which was also a Sabbath (annual).

Question 4: Added to stress the point.


#110

No. You don’t understand how the calendar works.

Following John’s gospel:

The Passover Lamb was slain in the 14th of Nissan but the meal itself was early on 15 Nisan (ie evening). Using our method, the Lamb was slain at about Noon on Friday* and eaten after sunset on Friday evening.

Because their days begin at sunset, the did not slaughter the lamb on the same day they ate it. It was the same day in our counting, but the next day according to theirs.

*The overall process began at about Noon, but the lambs were literally slain beginning at about 3 PM and certainly ending before sunset.


#111
  1. Yes.
  2. Friday, the day of preparation
  3. Mark 16:1 should read “brought” instead of bought
    And when the sabbath was past,… “In the end of it”, as Matthew says, Matthew 28:1; not “when it was the sabbath”, as the Arabic version reads; for it was not lawful to buy spices, and anoint with on the sabbath day; See Gill on Matthew 28:1.

Mary Magdalene, and Mary, the mother of James, and Salome; who was the wife of Zebedee, and the mother of the other James and John:

had bought sweet spices; or “brought”, as the Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions read; for though the women might have bought some on the preparation day, the day before the sabbath, the same evening that Christ was buried, Luke 23:56, yet, they might buy more for the same purpose, after the sabbath was over: for this there was a particular market at Jerusalem (d); for we are a told, that

"there were there three markets, one by another; in the first of which were sold, all kinds of precious things, silks, and embroidered work; in the second, various kinds of fruits and herbs; and in the third, all kinds of spices.’’

  1. Yes.

#112

Blanchardman.―Your question 1, to which you give the answer “No,” can be read in two ways.

(a) Did the Last Supper follow exactly the rules that the Lord gave to Moses in Exodus 12?
(b) Did the Last Supper follow the pattern of the Passover Seder as it was normally observed in Judea in the Herodian period?

I imagine it’s possible that you might answer “No” to both questions, but then again, you might not.


#113

Actually, the Seder is something different from the Passover Meal as such. The Passover meal requires the Temple (to sacrifice the lambs). After the destruction of the 2nd Temple (roughly 30 years after the Crucifixion) the true Passover Meal is no longer possible. The Seder (invented much later) is a substitute for the original Passover Meal. They’re not the same thing.

Still, the Gospels give 2 different answers. According to the Gospel of John, it was the meal of preparation the evening before the Passover. According to the Synoptics, it was the Passover meal.

Some scholars have tried to reconcile the two conflicting accounts. We will probably never know the answer on this earth.


#114

Reposting an earlier comment, duly amended (with thanks to Fr David for pointing out my mistake).

Blanchardman.―Your question 1, to which you give the answer “No,” can be read in two ways.

(a) Did the Last Supper follow exactly the rules that the Lord gave to Moses in Exodus 12?
(b) Did the Last Supper follow the pattern of the Passover celebration as it was normally observed in Judea in the Herodian period?

I imagine it’s possible that you might answer “No” to both questions, but then again, you might not.


Questioning apologetics on Last Supper contradiction
#115

Fr David.―Thank you for pointing out my misuse of the term “Seder.” I have now posted a duly amended version of my comment addressed to Blanchardman.

Some scholars have tried to reconcile the two conflicting accounts.

I find Jeremias’s arguments quite persuasive (The Eucharistic Words of Jesus, pp. 44-55). Although John later (18:28) states clearly that “the Jews did not enter the palace [because] they wanted to be able to eat the Passover,” in several other places he has described―according to Jeremias―what can only be a Passover meal. Some examples:

  1. “And it was dark” (13:30)―An evening meal, beginning after dark, indicates a special occasion such as a wedding or circumcision, and also the Passover meal.

  2. “One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him … Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, …” (13:23)―They were reclining, not sitting. Also only on special occasions, including the Passover meal.

  3. “Jesus answered, ‘A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet’.” (13:10)―All were ritually clean.

  4. “’What you are about to to do, do quickly,’ Jesus told him. … Some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor”(13:27-29)―Nobody asked Jesus what Judas was going out to do. “Quickly” could mean, “before the shops shut.” If it was 13 Nisan, there would be no such hurry.

  5. “Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley [to] an olive grove” (18:1)―Jesus does not return to Bethany. The night of Passover had to be spent in Jerusalem, which included the western slope of the Mount of Olives.

These five points (here abridged and paraphrased) are selected from a much longer list in Jeremias’ book.


#116

If Jesus is our Passover lamb then His blood must be on the cross **before **the Passover is eaten. Not after otherwise He did not fulfill the prophetic type presented in exodus.


#117

If I have understood your latest comment correctly, you are saying that your answer to my question is (a). In other words, you are examining the narratives of the Last Supper found in the four Gospels and asking whether they are in accordance with the rules that the Lord gave to Moses in Exodus 12. You are not concerned with point (b), the pattern of the Passover celebration as it was normally observed in Judea in the Herodian period.

For your reference, this is the question I asked:

Blanchardman.―Your question 1, to which you give the answer “No,” can be read in two ways.
(a) Did the Last Supper follow exactly the rules that the Lord gave to Moses in Exodus 12?
(b) Did the Last Supper follow the pattern of the Passover celebration as it was normally observed in Judea in the Herodian period?


#118

That is assuming the theology of the Gospel of John. The “Lamb of God” theme.

Understand, though, that the Synoptic Gospels provide a different perspective.


#119

@FrDavid96 Father bless,

Does that mean that Solemnities then are actually 32 hour long Liturgical days (assuming the Day starts at say 4pm Saturday Evening and doesn’t end till 12am Monday Midnight)?

I never thought of it like that before… very cool.


#120

Yes. That’s exactly what the Church says.

The primary source for this is the “General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar” (or some words close to that). This document (which is liturgical law) is printed at the beginning of every Roman Missal and every Liturgy of the Hours.


#121

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