Some good answers here.
Those in the church are one body in Christ. By this, we are all connected to one another. As St. Paul said, what affects the hand also affects the rest of the body. So that each part needs the other parts and all parts help each other.
Jesus said that we must love one another. He gave several parables to demonstrate this. So if one of our own is in trouble, then we just can’t ignore him but rather must follow what Jesus instructed us to do, and this is to love him. Trouble can happen in many ways, but there is none worse than when a person throws down his cross and no longer follows Jesus.
To overcome this, we pray and suffer and fast to offer these acts as atonement for the sinner so God may grant him whatever grace he needs to come back. It is a truism that we must pray to remain faithful and receive grace to do so. And if the sinner doesn’t then our prayers and sacrifices and sufferings can do that for him.
When Jesus said to love one another, it means the kind of love that may hurt. But then this shows our love for Jesus since he said he takes it personally what we do or don’t do for others.
Jesus’ Sacrifice being enough can be likened to that present sitting on your closet shelf. I gave it to you, and you said thanks and put it on the shelf, unopened.
Is it not true that I completed the act of creating and giving it to you? And yet something remains: your opening the gift and using it. I cannot do that part for you unless I want to treat you as a puppet master treats his puppet. God truly waits upon us to do our part.
Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. We live that salvation when we live by grace through faith and love.
The humility of Almighty God is signalled to us over and over, starting in Genesis with His friendly walks with His creatures in the Garden, is supercharged with His Incarnation into our flesh as Jesus of Nazareth, and reaches its earthly zenith in the Eucharist where He is subject in humble and homely appearances to our physical handling.
I hope the given but as-yet-unopened gift is a helpful illustration: our God is dynamic! It is His will and pleasure to interact intimately with men freely willing Him. So our salvation is dynamic.
Jesus’ sacrifice is eternally enough. His blood cleanses our impurity, and the flesh of His bones, proves His divinity is correct.
true human love is self-sacrificial, the surrender of one’s own desires for the well-being of others.
Jesus’ sacrifice is sufficient for opening the gates of heaven to every single human being. that does not mean that it is no longer necessary for us to love each other in a self-sacrificial (Christ like) way.
Jesus Himself said the two greatest commandments are the love of God and the love of our neighbor. in addition, He gave us a new commandment that we love one another as he has loved us.
it maybe a mystery that can not be understood in all of its aspects, but our acts of love, our sacrifices, are necessary for the salvation of souls, even if it is (it is not) limited only to the salvation of our own soul.
This sounds Protestant, so your saying my good works aren’t going to earn my salvation?
For spiritual matters, Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient. He paid that price in full.
For temporal matters, no. That’s why we must carry the cross. We are required to suffer.
Could you define the suffering your talking about? I was always under the impression I had to work out my salvation, not rely on Christ atonement alone
Well Bob I watched the video you sent. It seems the suffering they are referring to is the inevitable suffering we all face because of sin thru the fall of man. I believe it’s how we react to the suffering that proves our faith and our dependence on Gods strength and promise. Persevering, keeping the faith, loving the unlovable, reflecting Christ humility in the circumstances God has sent to strengthen us. This suffering is different then the persecution of the believers. 1 Peter talks extensively about this type of suffering and compares it to that of Christ. What do you think
Good works that are not done through Christ and with Christ and in Christ are absolutely worthless.
“Good works” will not earn anyone’s Salvation.
It’s been done by Christ.
Good works complement our Faith: we must do everything in Christ Jesus.
The Church does not Teach: Salvation through man’s efforts.
The Church Teaches that we are Saved in Christ and that we demonstrate our Salvation through our Faith and works.
Because we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.
Of course we are not responsible at all for that, but this does not matter.
I believe it’s how we react to the suffering that proves our faith and our dependence on Gods strength and promise.
And this requires a personal relationship with God, with God entering the picture actually helping someone conquer. If he’s not helping, failure is inevitable and one is screwed royally.
This suffering is different then the persecution of the believers. 1 Peter talks extensively about this type of suffering and compares it to that of Christ. What do you think
Christ suffered and died on the cross. As members of his body, we suffer in this way because we share in that cross. Of course, this makes life here a series of Good Fridays, with Easter Sunday only available after death. Life is suffering and unpleasant.
It seems like there are many different ideas on what Roman Catholics believe. One will say I count on works alone, another on Christ plus works and another on Christ alone. I’m speaking of justification and glorification. I talk to many Roman Catholic and they seem to settle the issue with the answer of purgatory. And I don’t see the idea in the bible accept maybe the suffering we have in this life. I see heaven and hell and Christ paying for my sins past present and future and good works a reflection of living this life for Him because 1 He wants us to and 2 I want to because of what He did for me. Thoughts?
Paul speaks of ones works being tried …and for some it will be that they are burned up while they are saved …but as thorough a burning building! (I would rather say escaping through a burning building is not a pleasant experience…but one that would put into the category of suffering…)
Hi Mikenrin and others…
This though is taking this thread somewhat off topic. Feel free to start a new thread but lets not pile other questions on this thread. Thanks
Getting back to the question of the thread - it has been some time so I will post what I posted above.
God give us the dignity of being “causes” (and we are sons in the Son!). We are given the dignity of proclaiming the Gospel, of caring for the sick and needed and yes of praying for and sacrificing for others salvation…We are given that dignity of being “causes” (by grace etc) in the good of others and of the world…
Such does not mean that the sacrifice on the Cross was not enough! It was superabundant to say the least.
But as Paul noted:
“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church…” (Colossians 1.24- RSV CE)*
Now does that mean that there is something lacking in the sufferings of Christ?
They rather were super abundant!
As one of my Professors at Fran. Un. Steubenville put it (either Dr. Martin or Dr. Hahn) noted years ago-
–what is lacking? Our sufferings. Us.
Our Sufferings - joined with his in his pascal mystery.
Not that they are needed - as if his sufferings were not “enough” (He could have saved us without such even!) - but we in our free will can help others who also have free will.
Evil (sin) comes from the abuse of free will -which yes also effects others - and prayer etc is a good use of free will for others.
Jesus makes a space as it were for us - for our love to be involved.
God involves us in the greatest aspects of life - as he involves us in the lesser aspects.
We are as I noted given the dignity of cooperating - of being a kind of (secondary) cause in good and even yes the salvation of others.
Prayer etc is a reality in the universe. Just as giving a cup of cold water to a thirsty person is a reality.
Bookcat, I agree with you that Christ suffering and sacrifice was and is abundantly more than we need to be justified. I also understand that we are to pick up our cross present our bodies as holy snd living sacrifices and all the commands to live holy lives in reverent fear of the Lord who gave himself up freely for our salvation. But the question of purgatory which is very much on topic needs to be addressed. If the Catholic doctrine says Jesus is enough, and it sounds like your professors agree it’s enough. Then why pugatory.
Scripture tells us sinners don’t enter heaven. And why should they? Sinners are those whose hearts aren’t totally sold out to God yet, who don’t love Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength but are still attracted to other, lesser, created things above Him instead. Jesus didn’t come solely to forgive sins, but to also take them away, to restore justice to His universe. We begin this journey, towards perfection/ purification, here on earth; we may well need to continue it, by God’s mercy, afterwards, before entrance into heaven.
So in Romans 7 St. Paul claims he still sins but the thief on the cross was with Christ “today” in paradise. And using the day to the lord is like a thousand years argument would be using it out of context. That being said do you believe St. Paul still being imperfect would have to go to purgatory. Or is Christ really enough to bring them and all who trust in him directly to his presence. Absent from the body and press from the lord. This doctrine is very troubling and seems to contradict the original statements on Christ sufficiency