Is Jesus the Old Testament God?


#1

I understand in Catholic theology Jesus is God.

Does this mean Jesus was the God of the Old Testament?

Because the God of the OT gives laws on:

  • slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46),
  • sex slavery (Exodus 21:7-11),
  • rape victims marrying their attacker (Deuteronomy 22:28-29),
  • being stoned to death for minor crimes.

Just to name a few sickening practices.

Please can you help explain. To a rational person this seems crazy.

Were these laws given by Jesus?

Why would he take on a completely different persona in the NT?


#2

God is God always and forever and is unchangeable.

Jesus is God and is one with the father and spirit. One God in 3 persons (who have one nature…Divine …in PERFECT communion).

That being said, many people say that the God of the old testiment is different than the God of the new testiment. But this is not true.

God being perfect in Himself and eternal (outside of time) is the same yesterday, today and tomorow. He does not change…what you’re seeing is mankind changing over history and God taking us where we stand in our evolution as a human body of persons.

For instance, I have a 17 month old son. I will discipline and deal with him differently now than I will when he is 8 , or 20 yrs old.

In the old testiment God permits the execution of prisoners of war…actually insists on it. Was God being cruel ? No, He just knew where His peoply mentally and spiritually war. By insisting they be immediatly put to death, He ensured they would not be raped, tourtured, etc etc. Later, When God comes in the new testiment …He tells us to “love our enemies” . He asked for a higher form of respect for life.


#3

[quote="MichaelHowling, post:2, topic:312418"]
That being said, many people say that the God of the old testiment is different than the God of the new testiment. But this is not true.

[/quote]

So to be clear Jesus did indeed give those laws on slavery, sex slavery, rape victims marrying their attackers, and stoning children to death. According to you.

[quote="MichaelHowling, post:2, topic:312418"]
In the old testiment God permits the execution of prisoners of war

[/quote]

Not just prisoners of war. Jesus? says on home ground to "kill everything that breathes". Thats all living things including defenseless children and animals.

This surely cannot possibly be the same person as in the NT :shrug:


#4

the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are the same God. Jesus is God.

God's revelation to man was partial and incomplete in the old Testament. It was a preparation for what was to come. God tells us exactly this through the Bible.

**In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; in these last days, he spoke to us through a son,* (Hebrews 1:1-2)*

Jesus is the fullness of God's revelation to man. When you look at Jesus you look at God. When you hear Jesus, you hear God. God's revelation to man was completed with Jesus. Before that however, God revealed himself to man partially, through his prophets and his actions on behalf of the Jews.

-Tim-


#5

Jesus is the begotten Son of Yahweh ( I AM )
He is the Second person of the Trinity.
Begotten, Not Made. Consubstntial with the Father.
Because He was human, there were limits on what
mysteries He could reveal at the time of His Ministry,
such as the exact time for the Second Coming.
He is both Man and God. The Second Coming will
be much different than the first.


#6

Dear Dave B_, please, you cannot approach the study of a corpus of Sacred Scriptures that spans thousands of years and has shaped the world we live in and the history of mankind with this condescending kind of approach. You can only approach it with great humbleness, acknowledging that you are greatly ignorant on this topic and that you seek to understand - particularly, the apparent discrepancy between the acts of God in the Old Testament and His acts and teachings in the New Testament. And there is no shame in this, for we are all greatly ignorant on the majority of things.

And by the way, it is incorrect to say that Jesus is the Old Testament God. God is One Being in Three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In the New Covenant, the Person of the Son took flesh and became man. So strictly speaking the God of the Old and the New Testament is the same, but is not just Jesus. And it is not incorrect to consider that there is a difference between the Old and New Covenant: there are major differences between the two indeed.

What Jesus did was to show how full of love and merciful God truly is, but it is my impression that understanding of this truth is something that will not be given to you until you learn that God’s foolishness is greater than man’s wisdom and until you approach the divine revelation with the proper mindset.

For your information, your doubts are not unreasonable at all. Most of us have them, to some degree. In fact, the first one we know of that has brought this question to the Church is Marcion of Sinope, in AD 144.

Marcion believed Jesus Christ was the savior sent by God, but he rejected the Hebrew Bible and the God of Israel. Marcionists believed that the wrathful Hebrew God was a separate and lower entity than the all-forgiving God of the New Testament. This belief was in some ways similar to Gnostic Christian theology.

The Church proved this teaching (known as Marcionism) to be gravely erroneous 19 centuries ago.

I particularly recommend - for serious understanding of this topic - the reading of the 5 books of Adversus Marcionem, the refutation of Marcionism by the Father of the Church Tertullian.


#7

Galatians 3:23-25 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

James 2:10-11 “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.”
Galatians 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

God gave us the law to show us his moral standard. James 2:10-11 says, “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.” Romans 5:12 says, " Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 6:26 says, “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.“ God chose to set forth his Son to atone for our sins even though we deserve death according to the law.

Matthew 5:38 says, “Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:” This was said in Exodus 21:24, Leviticus 24:20, and Deuteronomy 19:21. Jesus goes on to say in Matthew 5:39, “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

Jesus is not changing the law. Measure for measure is still God's moral standard. Jesus, however, is teaching the gospel of grace. Matthew 5:17 says, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” We deserve death and Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly.

Matthew 5:43-45 says, “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”

Matthew 5:14-15 says, “For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

There is a parable that Jesus told to illustrate this. A lord forgave his servant a large debt and that same servant didn’t act in the same mercy. We see in Matthew 18:32-35, “Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”

In conclusion…
The law is our God’s moral standard. The gospel is our God’s gift of undeserved grace. The law tells us that we do not live up to his standard and are dead in sin. The gospel tells us in John 1:12-13, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” Those who God has called to faith have been forgiven must offer the same forgiveness to all.

PS If you read all of the laws concerning slaves, you would see that they had plenty of rights and were not at all allowed to be treated like the Americans treated slaves.


#8

It says in the NT that there were laws given because of the hardness of the men’s hearts. So, basically it is that, God did not like what they were doing, and He knew that they would likely not stop what they were doing, so if they would keep doing it, then he would put restrictions on how they were to do what they were doing. And the slaves weren’t really slaves like they were here in America. They were to be treated very well, and only to cover a debt. And after a certain amount of time they were to be let free.


#9

[quote="Dave_B, post:1, topic:312418"]
I understand in Catholic theology Jesus is God.

Does this mean Jesus was the God of the Old Testament?

Because the God of the OT gives laws on:

  • slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46),
  • sex slavery (Exodus 21:7-11),
  • rape victims marrying their attacker (Deuteronomy 22:28-29),
  • being stoned to death for minor crimes.

Just to name a few sickening practices.

Please can you help explain. To a rational person this seems crazy.

Were these laws given by Jesus?

Why would he take on a completely different persona in the NT?

[/quote]


#10

[quote="R_C, post:6, topic:312418"]
You can only approach it with great humbleness, acknowledging that you are greatly ignorant on this topic and that you seek to understand - particularly, the apparent discrepancy between the acts of God in the Old Testament and His acts and teachings in the New Testament. And there is no shame in this, for we are all greatly ignorant on the majority of things.

[/quote]

I dont think I am ignorant of the Bible. I know it quite well as I was a Christian for four years.

The discrepancy between the OT and NT is not apparent. It is huge.

You read things like Joshua where the Israelites commit genocide killing everything in their way. Compare this to the 'Turn the other cheek' teaching of Jesus. The two are in great contrast.

You are either dealing with two different gods? Or the human understanding of God has changed between the old and new.


#11

[quote="Dave_B, post:1, topic:312418"]
I understand in Catholic theology Jesus is God.

...[evil sounding stuff]...

Please can you help explain. To a rational person this seems crazy.

Were these laws given by Jesus?

Why would he take on a completely different persona in the NT?

[/quote]

Yes Jesus is God, and there is no difference between the God of the OT and the God of the NT. It is understandable that you would find this crazy, but (and no offense is meant here) this is primarily because of a lack of understanding of the OT on your part.

Let me explain - In the time of the laws you reference, the world was a pretty brutal place, with lots of tribes and nations wandering doing pretty brutal things to each other.

God picked a group to be His chosen people. He didn't pick a perfect group - there wasn't one, He just picked some people. Many individuals within that group were righteous, but for the most part, His chosen people were just people doing what people did, following the brutal practices of the day.

Now, God could have just laid down the Law, as it were, and said "these things are forbidden and if you do them you will die," but given the nature of the times, and the fact that His people often even failed to live up to the rules He did give them, this would likely have just resulted in either a) a bunch of dead Israelites, or b) a group of people following God solely out of fear or coercion, or c) both. Not good.

So what God did is begin to refine their behavior over time. He said "if you will have slaves, then you must treat them within these parameters," "if you take a woman captive to be your wife, you must at least afford this amount of respect," etc.

He did not say these things were good. He said they were happening anyway, and He began to slowly steer the Israelites away from them while limiting what they could do. The laws you are referring exist not to allow bad practices, but to limit harm caused by bad practices that were already there.

It is important not to read any part of the Bible in isolation, either from the rest of the Bible, or from the history and culture that surrounded it. Read the OT in light of the New, sort of thing.

Fr. Barron has some really good commentary on this sort of thing, I'd recommend some of his videos. (I don't remember off the top of my head which videos are relevant to this specific question, but he addresses it and several others that some people have somewhere in that list.)


#12

[quote="Dave_B, post:1, topic:312418"]
I understand in Catholic theology Jesus is God.

Does this mean Jesus was the God of the Old Testament?

Because the God of the OT gives laws on:

  • slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46),
  • sex slavery (Exodus 21:7-11),
  • rape victims marrying their attacker (Deuteronomy 22:28-29),
  • being stoned to death for minor crimes.

Just to name a few sickening practices.

Please can you help explain. To a rational person this seems crazy.

Were these laws given by Jesus?

Why would he take on a completely different persona in the NT?

[/quote]

I thought something like that was plainly obvious, the old testament is jewish history, their wars, laws etc. Look at the laws they have in Saudi Arabia, they would also invoke god just as someone is being beheaded.

Jesus is God. Did Jesus ever cause hurt to anyone. NO. Their was nothing Jesus did not say or do that he was not prepared to do himself.

God is unchangeable people change.


#13

Maybe you don’t understand what Jesus meant by turn the other cheek.
Its actually an act of defiance.
Not of meekness
To a Jew the left hand could not be used so the back of the right hand would be used to stike someone in a demeaning way. It was meant to get you to submit.

By standing and turning your cheek you in esssance say you cant break my will


#14

You are. Trust me on this one. Because it is fairly possible that you even memorize the whole corpus by heart, but understanding of the layers of meaning is impossible for a single human being. For instance, not even the teachers of the Law understood that the manna and the bread given to the prophet were a prefiguration of Christ. That the only son Isaac that carries the wood on which he will be sacrificed was a type of Christ. That the Ark of the Covenant was a type of the mother of Christ. That “turn the other cheek” does not mean to take it quietly, but to not snap back out of pride and vanity. Perhaps if you had spent 40 years with the right mindset trying to understand the Old Testament based on the light of the New Testament and on the teachings of the Tradition of Christianity (that’s literally 20 centuries of writings) then you could say you know the Sacred Scriptures quite well. But by then, you yourself would be aware that the more you learn, the more you seem to still have to learn.

In short: I’m not saying you don’t know what you are talking about. I’m not trying to be offensive. All I mean is that this huge discrepancy has been answered, in a sound and reasonable way. And of course the issue here is not the discrepancy - if you study the refutations, you’ll reject it yourself as erroneous - but the fact that you reject the teaching authority of those who refuted the error. So, in a sense, you are forced to learn the whole refutation by yourself. This is like a student who does not accept that a professor is qualified to teach the theory of special relativity. He’d have to go back to Einstein’s works and trace the mathematical development step by step. :shrug:

Thus, I invite you to do the most reasonable thing: acknowledge that as a fallible person you do not hold the truth and that your either/or statement does not contain all the possible choices, and learn why Christianity for the past 20 centuries has denied the validity of the argument of Marcion, the same argument you now bring forth.


#15

Good answer :thumbsup:

Christ, in his Last Supper Discourse to the Apostles, told them there were Many Things they could not understand yet, and that OVER TIME, when the time was right, the HS would make these revelations know to them [via the Church].

Perhaps this is why we only recently got the Marian Dogmas defined. And, it took awhile before the Church spoke out against Slavery, etc, etc.
This is the beauty of Catholic Church …HS tells it when to reveal truths that we can handle/accept !


#16

[quote="Dave_B, post:10, topic:312418"]
I dont think I am ignorant of the Bible. I know it quite well as I was a Christian for four years.

The discrepancy between the OT and NT is not apparent. It is huge.

You read things like Joshua where the Israelites commit genocide killing everything in their way. Compare this to the 'Turn the other cheek' teaching of Jesus. The two are in great contrast.

You are either dealing with two different gods? Or the human understanding of God has changed between the old and new.

[/quote]

What do you mean "was a Christian for 4 years" ? Are you in partial or full rebellion ?


#17

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

That was awesome. XD


#18

To OP:

you have posted similar comments/questions previously
which were answered quite appropriately
but you do not appear to be reflecting on these
so, i am not sure why you keep doing this
there is the cathecism that will address all your concerns
i am writing this to get your attention
and perhaps to snap you out of your arrogance
In God we find Truth and Fulfillment
scrpiture points to that Truth
you’ve made it quite clear that you are not getting it,
don’t mindlessly post questions and ignore the answers
i wish you well on your search


#19

[quote="brb3, post:15, topic:312418"]
And, it took awhile before the Church spoke out against Slavery, etc, etc. This is the beauty of Catholic Church ...HS tells it when to reveal truths that we can handle/accept !

[/quote]

Why not Jesus? Couldnt he had spoken out against slavery and rules on slavery / sex slavery in the OT. Heros like Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Others like Joshua committed genocide. Wasnt these crimes worth correcting?


#20

[quote="Dave_B, post:19, topic:312418"]
Why not Jesus? Couldnt he had spoken out against slavery and rules on slavery / sex slavery in the OT. Heros like Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Others like Joshua committed genocide. Wasnt these crimes worth correcting?

[/quote]

The way I see it, altho' Jesus came to save us all, it wasn't through changing social systems. The story of Lazarus, the rich man, the camel and the eye of the needle, etc. tell the listener about the kingdom of God. It must be remembered that God had made a promise not to send another flood; what do you propose. You do not sound like an evil person, but you are not convinced about scripture; so how exactly were your changes going to be carried out? A good part of the Bible, I read as not only describing God's love for us, but also how sin spread throughout the world. Your sensibilities seem to be shaped by Christ's message of love, it is interesting that you seem to attack scripture (maybe that appearance is because of the limitations of text). Bottom line is that mankind is broken; we are meant to be eternal body and spirit, and through Christ we are redeemed and live in hope of resurrection.
Again, it would really help you to go through the Catechism.


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