Is Kyrie part of the Penitential Rite?


#1

I’m kind of confused on this. There are specific times when the Penitential Rite is to be omitted from Mass. Examples are Wedding Masses and Ash Wednesday’s Mass as well as any time the Asperges is substituted for the Penitential Rite. Is the Kyrie a part of this?

The Order of the Mass says:

  1. The Kyrie eleison (Lord, have mercy) invocations follow, unless they have just occurred in a formula of the Penitential Act

The GIRM says:

The Kyrie, Eleison

  1. After the Penitential Act, the Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy), is always begun, unless it has already been part of the Penitential Act

IMO this means that the Kyrie can be part of the Penitential Rite, but must always be included regardless of if there is a Penitential Rite. Is this correct?


#2

[quote="GangGreen, post:1, topic:350324"]
I'm kind of confused on this. There are specific times when the Penitential Rite is to be omitted from Mass. Examples are Wedding Masses and Ash Wednesday's Mass as well as any time the Asperges is substituted for the Penitential Rite. Is the Kyrie a part of this?

The Order of the Mass says:

The GIRM says:

IMO this means that the Kyrie can be part of the Penitential Rite, but must always be included regardless of if there is a Penitential Rite. Is this correct?

[/quote]

I am not sure what the issue is for you above?

The logic suggests that IF there is a Penitential Rite then the Kyrie MUST be included one way or another (it may not always be as a "formal" Kyrie).

However, there are times when the "formal" penitential Rite itself may be ommitted.
(I understand that Asperges and Ash Wednesday are clear substitutes for the PRite but I was not aware that some form of Penitential Rite could be completely left out of a Wedding Mass :eek:.


#3

The issue is that if the penitential rite is omitted on Ash Wednesday, for weddings, if the Asperges is used, and I'm not sure if there are any other times. I can't find the text right now, but from everywhere that I've seen the penitential rite is excluded from Wedding Masses. However, based on what I see above, this does not exclude the Kyrie which seems like it should be said/sung regardless of if there is a penitential rite. That's what I'm trying to confirm.


#4

[quote="GangGreen, post:1, topic:350324"]
I'm kind of confused on this. There are specific times when the Penitential Rite is to be omitted from Mass. Examples are Wedding Masses and Ash Wednesday's Mass as well as any time the Asperges is substituted for the Penitential Rite. Is the Kyrie a part of this?

[/quote]

This is from the USCCB website. According to it the Kyrie is included in the Penitential Act.


#5

[quote="SMHW, post:4, topic:350324"]
This is from the USCCB website. According to it the Kyrie is included in the Penitential Act.

[/quote]

Same site as what I posted in my OP
usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-2.cfm

The Kyrie, Eleison

  1. After the Penitential Act, the Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy), is always begun, unless it has already been part of the Penitential Act. Since it is a chant by which the faithful acclaim the Lord and implore his mercy, it is usually executed by everyone, that is to say, with the people and the choir or cantor taking part in it.

Each acclamation is usually pronounced twice, though it is not to be excluded that it be repeated several times, by reason of the character of the various languages, as well as of the artistry of the music or of other circumstances. When the Kyrie is sung as a part of the Penitential Act, a “trope” precedes each acclamation.

Here it says that it doesn't necessarily have to be part of the Penitential Act in which case it seems like it's said regardless of it it's part of it.

The quote from the Order of the Mass that I have in my OP also comes from the USCCB website:
old.usccb.org/romanmissal/order-of-mass.pdf

The Kyrie eleison (Lord, have mercy) invocations follow, unless they have just occurred in a formula of the Penitential Act

Although on the first link it says "After the Penitential Act" whereas the Order of the Mass just says that Kyrie eleison follow does that mean the Penitential Act or the Liturgical Greeting?


#6

The Kyrie has historically been a response to a litany of petitions as can still be found in the Byzantine rite. In the Roman rite, it has since gotten truncated to the ninefold, and now the sixfold Kyrie, but it's still a carryover from the time the Roman liturgy was said in Greek. From a historical standpoint, the Kyrie is not so much of a penitential, as it is of an intercessory character.


#7

After doing some additional reading on the matter it seems as if this is a matter of some controversy. Most people seem to agree that the Kyrie should be considered its own rite (if not included within the Penitential Act). But it's less clear if the Kyrie should be sung/chanted/recited if the Penitential Act is omitted.


#8

The correct answer is that nobody knows, not even the bishops. I’ve flipped-flopped on this in the course of writing this reply! FYI, Benedict’s last Ash Wednesday Mass excluded the Penitential Act but included the Kyrie. And I always found it odd that the Missal doesn’t stick the Kyrie at the end of the Confiteor but gives it its own instructions implying that it is its own rite. If you read the GIRM in light of that, it would seem the Kyrie is always said.


#9

[quote="GangGreen, post:1, topic:350324"]
...There are specific times when the Penitential Rite is to be omitted from Mass. ... IMO this means that the Kyrie can be part of the Penitential Rite, but must always be included regardless of if there is a Penitential Rite. Is this correct?

[/quote]

The Kyrie is a specific part by itself, but also a prayer used sometimes in the Penetential Act. GIRM 46 The rites that precede the Liturgy of the Word, namely, the Entrance, the Greeting, the Penitential Act, the Kyrie, the Gloria in excelsis (Glory to God in the highest) and Collect…
The Kyrie rite is not always included, as indicated in the Cæremoniale Episcoporum 1984 (Italian original, my English translation).255. The bishop, wearing his miter and crosier simple, after the entrance into the church with priests, deacons and other ministers in the usual way, kisses the altar and incenses, and then goes to the chair, where he greets the people. Therefore omitting the penitential rite and, if appropriate, the Kyrie, proclaims the opening prayer (Collect).

  1. Il vescovo, portando la mitra semplice e il pastorale, dopo aver fatto l’ingresso in chiesa con i presbiteri, i diaconi e gli altri ministri nel modo consueto, bacia l’altare e lo incensa; poi si reca alla cattedra, da dove saluta il popolo. Quindi, omesso l’atto penitenziale e, secondo l’opportunità, il Kyrie, proclama l’orazione colletta.

The GIRM second edition 1975, current in 1984 when Cæremoniale Episcoporum was promulgated, show the same parts: 24. The parts preceding the liturgy of the word, namely, the entrance song, greeting, penitential rite, Kyrie, Gloria, and opening prayer or collect, have the character of a beginning, introduction, and preparation.


#10

So does that mean a bishop can skip the Kyrie "if appropriate?" I'm not quite sure what appropriate would mean. I would guess that it doesn't apply to a regular priest. It sounds like including it no matter what is the better bet.


#11

[quote="GangGreen, post:10, topic:350324"]
So does that mean a bishop can skip the Kyrie "if appropriate?" I'm not quite sure what appropriate would mean. I would guess that it doesn't apply to a regular priest. It sounds like including it no matter what is the better bet.

[/quote]

Do you agree with the follow?

Logically, the Kyrie, eleison is not begun after the Penitential Act, unless Form A or B occurs.

Per The Roman Missal, Appendix II
"From time to time on Sundays, especially in Easter Time, instead of the customary Penitential Act, the blessing and sprinkling of water may take place as a reminder of Baptism."
and GIRM 52"After the Penitential Act, the Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy), is always begun, unless it has already been part of the Penitential Act."

Therefore:
If the blessing and sprinkling of water is to be done then do it.

Else If the Penitential Act is to be done then do it.

If Penitential Act A or B was done then do the *Kyrie, eleison. *

One common Penitential Act Form C (tropes) is:

You were sent to heal the contrite of heart:Lord, have mercy.
You came to call sinners:Christ, have mercy.
You are seated at the right hand of the Father to intercede for us:Lord, have mercy.


#12

You left out the scenario which says:

If the Penitential Act and blessing/sprinkling of water are not to be done THEN?

Your previous post seems to show them as separate parts of the Mass, so in theory, can the Kyrie be done if neither Penitential Act are done? This obviously only applies to Ash Wednesday and Weddings (unless there are other times maybe?).

That's the purpose of the thread. I've googled this as well and the answer seems to be contradictory. Maybe in the OF it's up to the priest? IDK.

I just googled it and this post came up on musicasacra.com
forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/7869/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-girm/p1

  • Q: Are the Kyrie and Gloria included in Wedding Masses? A. The Penitential Act (e.g., Confiteor) is omitted. The Gloria is included. Whether the Kyrie is included is somewhat unclear, as some rubrics indicate that the Kyrie is not part of the Penitential Act, whereas some rubrics suggest that it is. Until this is clarified, check with your diocesan office for worship for guidance. Also, the Creed is included on Sundays and solemnities.

#13

[quote="GangGreen, post:3, topic:350324"]
The issue is that if the penitential rite is omitted on Ash Wednesday, for weddings, if the Asperges is used, and I'm not sure if there are any other times. I can't find the text right now, but from everywhere that I've seen the penitential rite is excluded from Wedding Masses. However, based on what I see above, this does not exclude the Kyrie which seems like it should be said/sung regardless of if there is a penitential rite. That's what I'm trying to confirm.

[/quote]

The penitential rite is also excluded if there is a baptism or one of the rites of Christian initiation. The Kyrie is not said.


#14

iwww

[quote="GangGreen, post:12, topic:350324"]
You left out the scenario which says:

If the Penitential Act and blessing/sprinkling of water are not to be done THEN?%between%

[/quote]

What makes this difficult to discuss is that the rites for weddings and special events are frequently published separately from the usual Sunday or weekday Mass rites. Such publications are almost never available online; you have to shell out money to buy the book.

(If you do find the rite online there's a good chance someone is violating a copyright law.)


#15

Well, I have the 1970 Rite of Marriage book right in front of me.

In this book it actually includes the Penitential Rite. There's nothing in here which says that the Penitential Rite should be omitted.

I also just found a pdf online of the Third Edition of the Roman Missal

the penitential act is omitted. the gloria in excelsis (glory to god in the highest) is said.

Here the Kyrie is not mentioned. Does one assume that the Kyrie is always said regardless or is it assumed that the Kyrie is part of the Penitential Act and therefore is omitted?

The missal also lists the Kyrie as separate from the Penitential Act

the rites that precede the Liturgy of the Word, namely, the entrance, the greeting, the penitential act, the Kyrie, the Gloria in excelsis (Glory to God in the highest) and collect, have the character of a beginning, an introduction, and a preparation

  1. the penitential act follows. after this, the Kyrie is sung or said, in accordance with the rubrics (cf. no. 52).

  2. then the penitential act takes place, and, in accordance with the rubrics, the Kyrie and the Gloria in excelsis (Glory to God in the highest) are said.

For Pentcost Sunday

after the psalmody, omitting the penitential act, and if appropriate, the Kyrie (Lord, have mercy), the priest says the prayer grant, we pray, almighty god, that the splendor, as at the vigil Mass

Baptism

in this Mass, the penitential act, the Kyrie and the creed are omitted. the gloria in excelsis (glory to god in the highest), however, is said.

Based on these, it seems that the Missal considers the Kyrie as separate from the Penitential Act.


#16

I am going to ask for an Apostolic Constitution to be promulgated about this matter...


#17

Certainly the parts are clearly identified and the Kyrie is separate: 1) the entrance song, 2) greeting, 3) penitential rite, 4) Kyrie, 5) Gloria, and 6) opening prayer or collect.

Also you said, missing in the logic was: “If the Penitential Act and blessing/sprinkling of water are not to be done THEN?” Actually that is the ELSE case shown, but, it seems that the “programming logic” style presentation did not help, so I am abandoning it.

From Zenit, Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university states, referring to Introduction to the Divine Office No. 94, that "This norm allows for both " and also that “… the Kyrie would normally be omitted whenever the rubrics for a blessing indicate the omission of the penitential rite.”

Introduction to the Divine Office No. 94:The psalmody of morning prayer follows as usual, up to, but excluding, the reading. After the psalmody the penitential rite is omitted and, as circumstances suggest, the Kyrie; the Gloria then follows, if required by the rubrics, and the celebrant says the opening prayer of the Mass. The liturgy of the word follows as usual.
Notice that when the sprinkling occurs in place of the usual Penitential Act it does not include the Kyrie.

There are times that the Kyrie is always omitted:

  1. At Sunday Masses at which the Sprinkling Rite takes place
  2. At the Easter Vigil
  3. At the ritual Mass for the conferral of baptism
  4. At the funeral Mass after the remains of the deceased have been sprinkled

There are times when the Kyrie is omitted if appropriate:

  1. At the Pentecost Vigil
  2. At a stational Mass in Lent
  3. At the Palm Sunday Mass following the procession or solemn entrance

Note that the Penitential Act is omitted for at least these:

  1. Ash Wednesday
  2. Palm Sunday
  3. Presentation of the Lord
  4. when baptism of children occurs during Sunday Mass
  5. when annointing of the sick occurs during Sunday Mass
  6. the consecration or blessing of a church
  7. the blessing of a new presidential chair
  8. when lauds or vespers are joined to Mass

Also it is an option to omit the Penitential Act at children’s Masses.

ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur433.htm


#18

Well he also stated

My opinion would be that, although it is not explicit in every case, the Kyrie would normally be omitted whenever the rubrics for a blessing indicate the omission of the penitential rite.

It's fascinating that the rubrics don't clearly lay this out.

As he says, in the EF the Confiteor and the Kyrie are quite separated. In the OF they come one after the other.

So we have 4 situations where the Kyrie is ALWAYS omitted. 3 situations where it's omitted if appropriate (whatever that means). 9 situations where the penitential rite is omitted (you forgot Weddings), but no note is made as to whether the Kyrie would be included.

The more I read, the more I feel that in those 9 situations the option to sing/say the Kyrie is still there and even in those other 3 situations. Whether in those 9 situations it's an option or a requirement to include or maybe it's not included and just not made clear, I don't know.


#19

I think the simplest thing to do, should Rome ever feel the need to clarify this, would be to simply always say or sing the Kyrie. It is not absolutely, explicitly penitential in nature, so even in those circumstances in which the PA is omitted, the Kyrie seems to fit well, imho.

PS: It is so awkward to go straight from "And with your spirit" to the Gloria. The best way for this kind of situation to be handled now is for there to be about a 10 second pause, then the organist does the little "hey father here's your cue" thing (don't know what that's called), then the priest intones the Gloria.


#20

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:19, topic:350324"]
I think the simplest thing to do, should Rome ever feel the need to clarify this, would be to simply always say or sing the Kyrie. It is not absolutely, explicitly penitential in nature, so even in those circumstances in which the PA is omitted, the Kyrie seems to fit well, imho.

PS: It is so awkward to go straight from "And with your spirit" to the Gloria. The best way for this kind of situation to be handled now is for there to be about a 10 second pause, then the organist does the little "hey father here's your cue" thing (don't know what that's called), then the priest intones the Gloria.

[/quote]

I've only ever seen the "hey father here's your cue" thing in the EF :D. I actually love it how in the EF the priest always sings the opening line of the Gloria and Credo. I believe there is the option for this in the OF, but I've never seen it.


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