What exactly was I growling about? And how exactly was I talking about homosexual equal rights?
What exactly was I growling about? And how exactly was I talking about homosexual equal rights?
Considering the discussion was about single life of celibacy being a calling and it is the Church’s teaching that those who are homosexual are called to a celibate single life, I think what you said is relevant to the debate.
Sure, a person with SSA who is also attracted to the opposite sex can have a Sacramental and happy marriage. They could also choose stay single and celibate. Their priest would praise them for the dedication to faith it takes to live a celibate life. So, it does follow that someone who doesn’t have SSA could also be single as part of God’s will and that they, too, should be praised for discerning their path and remaining faithfully celibate.
I don’t think one necessarily has to change what they’re doing to live their vocation, i.e. God’s purpose for their life. Some people might not be called to marriage but they have college degrees or skills and talents that do not necessarily fit with the religious orders. The orders I’ve seen are about education or caring for the sick or elderly. But what if someone has a degree in Engineering or Information Technology or a related field and doesn’t feel called to married life or called to teach these subjects at university? These individuals can still use their skills to help the world but they wouldn’t fit into a community. It seems a better match, if they must join a religious order, would be to join a third-order secular group. But not everyone is called to a religious order, either…
I think what Jesus was telling us is that we need to focus on serving God and helping others. If a single person does that, then they are doing right. But if they are a shut-in, don’t volunteer or help the community, don’t spend a lot of time in prayer, etc. then they need to focus more outside themselves.
There is a consecrated single life option, where individuals may make a permanent pledge of celibacy but live in the world as laypersons. I think that is great for those who are called to it, but for others it may close off a possible vocation to marriage; people are living longer and longer and maybe God’s plan is for some people to get married later in life. They are not closed to the idea of marriage, but are dedicating themselves to other things right now, such as the pro-life movement.
As I noted, not just specifically you, but the entire context of SSA/Homosexuality.
Yes, I agree that someone suffering from SSA / homosexual are called to a celibate single life.
What I’ve seen way too often is that once SSA/HS is brought up, that is what the thread degenerates to and I most humbly beg that we keep from doing that with this thread as the question is not directly related to SSA/HS and the Churches teachings about how people with SSA/HS should live.
Instead, the thread’s question is about wether or not there is a Vocation of Celebacy, which I think was clearly answered by my posts with a single word, Yes, as supported by the scriptures and the tract that I quoted. (Post 4 and Post 6 )
The cat may be an issue. and I can understand not wanting to give up the cat; however, that is much like the follower that wanted to bury is his father first…
Do not take the word of an individual Nun/Sister. Go the director of the convent or the Mother Superior. Only the directors of that location can decide wether or not they can accomodate your disability at that location. If it is physical, they may know of a location that can accomodate. If it is psycological, they will know how to get you help (besides, they may also wave the restriction on the cat in such a case).
Contact the Chancery Office in you location and talk with the Director of Vocations. He will also have a lot of information for you.
Single life is not a vocation. It’s not related to whether or not a challenge is involved. It’s only related to the definition of “vocation”. One does not need a calling to be single because we all start that way.
So, St. Joesph was not called to the Vocation of Celebacy within the marrage to the Holy Mother? I would suspect that St. Joe might just argue with you a little bit about wether or not God called him to such a vocation.
Though born single, we are not **normally **born as asexual beings. We are normally driven biologically to have sexual intercourse or to release those urges in some manner (ask any teenager now days just how hard it is not to have sexual intercourse or to satisfy their “needs” in some manner - and the pornography industry relies on just those types urges within us all to fund its industry).
Celibacy does not limit itself to just remaining unmarried, it involves not giving in to the natural biological urges to have any sort of sexual contact with self or others in any way or manner. Additionally, one must also ignore the pressures from socity that would call such a choice “un-natural” and sick, providing all sorts of pressure to engage in causual intercourse!
Therefor, I contend that the celebat life is an extreme sacrifice and hardship on those that would lead such a life, especally outside of the traditional concecrated lives of the preisthood, monastic, etc…!
So, let us leave the “feelings” aside and look at some sort of actual proof or statment one way or the other from the Fathers, the Saints, or the Magisterium:
Respectfully then, I would ask that you go back and re-read my two posts:
(…) All of this is false. Although most people are at some point in their lives called to the married state, the*** vocation of celibacy is explicitly advocated***—as well as practiced—by both Jesus and Paul.
and Post 6
**Jesus’ teaching **on the value of celibacy “for the sake of the kingdom”:
“Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. **Some are incapable of marriage because they were born **so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it” (Matt. 19:11–12).
and the article that is linked to therein ( Celibacy and the Priesthood).
After doing so, perhaps, you can provide some teaching from the Church Fathers, the Magisterium, or Scripture that supports your position - as I have provided such teachings from Paul and Christ in scripture that supports the position that there is a true calling to the Vocation of Celibacy.
Apparently I am being misunderstood. I am not saying that one is not living according to God’s will by remaining single. I am not saying single life is not challenging.
I am saying that we are all born single and are commanded to be chaste. Chastity in the single life is celibacy. We do not receive a calling from God, in other words a vocation, to do what we are already doing.
I suspect that is what the priest meant when he told the OP that single is not a vocation.
Not everyone receives a vocation. It does not make them any less holy.
and one more thing:
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Section II: The Vocation to Chastity
Chasitity and Celebacy… same thing… seems funny that if there were no such Vocation that the CCC would indeed have an entire section devoted to such, but let us also look at a few parts ( for those that would like to read the entire work of the CCC including this section at the Vatican Website - translated in to several different languages. The english version is here: CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - Table of Contents
CCC2348 All the baptized are called to chastity. The Christian has “put on Christ,” the model for all chastity. All Christ’s faithful are called to lead a chast life in keeping with their particular states of life. At the moment of his Baptism, the Christian is pledged to lead his affective life in chastity.
Then the offenses against chasity start in CCC2351 with Lust, Masturbation, Fornication, Pornography…
So, there is a teaching in the Magisterium about such a “calling” or “vocation” to the Celibate (chaste) life.
The fact that we are ALL called to the Vocation of Chastity thru our Baptism does not in any way lesson the fact that is is a “Calling;” therefor, a “Vocation” and is called as much by the Holy Mother Church thru the Catechism.
Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun 1. celibacy - an unmarried status
condition, status - a state at a particular time; “a condition (or state) of disrepair”; “the current status of the arms negotiations”
2. celibacy: abstaining from sexual relations (as because of religious vows)
- chastity, sexual abstention: abstinence - act or practice of refraining from indulging an appetite
- faith, religion, religious belief: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality
If single, married, and religious lives are all vocations, then everyone is called to a vocation and the word does not mean what it used to mean.
MtnDwellar : Sorry I Cross posted with you…
and may do so yet again by the time I get this one posted! :juggle:
I have terrible spelling and takes me awhile to proof read my work.
I also like to (re)source things before I post… been more that once that when I’ve gone back to the source, what I thought I remembered wasn’t exactly what was written! :eek:
Not everyone receives a vocation. It does not make them any less holy.
Ah, and I did cross post again :whacky:
From the Glossary of the CCC:
VocationThe calling **or destiny **we have in this life and hereafter. God has created the human person to love and serve him; the fulfillment of this vocation is eternal happiness (1,358,1700). Christ calls the faithful to the perfection of holiness (825). THe vocation of the laity consistes in seeking the Kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affaris and directing them according to God’s will (898). Priestly and religious vocations are dedicated to the service of the Church as the universal sacrament of salvation (cf. 873; 931)
Perhaps, as I have often done myself with other words and concepts, there was a mis-understanding of what the term ment within the context it was/is used. Words often have different meanings when used within different contexts!
To state such a thing is wrongful to my mind, Holly. Sometimes God can indicate His Will not my positive factors, but by negative factors such as impediments. For example, Jesus being God knows our love for Him and that we would desire and strive to enter religious life, but He has another plan for us, so He puts in place impediments to religious life in order that we not go in that direction as our journey in life, because we are unable. It is quite natural and normal for a person who does love Jesus ardently to desire to give their whole lives to Him. With religious life there are quite public rituals, dress, environment etc. etc. that ‘shout’ to the whole world "I love Jesus and desire to give my entire life to Him and have done so! With the single life and in love with Jesus, there is nothing like this. One is hidden as it were and most often no one knows except Jesus of our great love for Him. We SHOUT nonetheless - simiply look at little St Therese of Lisieux, she was not canonized because she was a Carmelite nun, but because she ardently loved Jesus and gave her whole selfhood and life to Him unreservedly. We can do this too though we are not Carmelite nuns nor even nuns or religious sisters, but humble secular lay people. St Therese has been, and is, a great influence forgood in not only The Church, but the entire world - not because she was a nun, but because of the way she lived her journey loving Jesus, giving her whole self to Him, her life…a grain of wheat must die in order to flower. And we are asked to die to our own self - and this might mean die to our deepest desire and hope. That is probably one of the most painful things one can experience in life.
It was not St Therese that effected all that happened after she died both in The Church and in the world, it was Jesus and THROUGH her, because of her - and that she did die to herself. She, the grain of wheat, died to herself - and look what happened!
No one can state whether a religious community would accept you or not as an absolute or for absolutely sure. Some just might.
Have you considered a Secular Institute of Consecrated Life? These woman make canonical vows and are therefore in the consecrated state of life, which is the category for religious life per se also. However most all live in their own homes, meet regularly, are totally responsible for themselves just as any secular person. They live a formal Rule of Life.
You could make private vows and live just a single life in the secular world as a lay person - although you don’t HAVE to make private vows. You could write a Rule of Life for yourself or follow an established rule of life with your own statutes. But if it is religious life per se you desire, then keep trying as long as the desire persists. Goodness! I know what a suffering it can be over years to be continually turned away from the Convent door, sometimes quite crushed by what was said to me. But it is not people in whom I invest, it is Jesus. It is The Lord! I have eventually found because of the great Peace and Joy I experience (Fruits of The Holy Spirit) the way Jesus invited me to travel in the single life under private vows. It has been a very long road with many little sufferings. But we don’t make the sign of The Cross for nothing, nor proclaim it as our symbol. We live it out in our own lives united to His Sufferings whom we love.
As I said, I have had the experience myself and it is uncharitable and wrongful to send a person away from an application or enquiry re religious life with statements that are negative about the person. It can be crushing to say the least. And religious per se are supposed to be ideally living out Charity in every moment in their lives and with every person - not crushing them ‘because they aint good enough for them and they don’t think that one is good enough for anyone like them’ - it is their offence against Charity and their problem…should it occur.
God bless you and grant you much Peace and Joy. How He must love a person who can’t bear the thought of leaving their cat. After all, He created our furry friends too and loves them. And how our little furry friends need us. They are very vulnerable without us needing love and care just as any creature does. Without us, domesticated animals are alone and victims of their own vulnerability - they could not even feed themselves and would find survival on their own in the wild a cruel way to live. Jesus knows all this. You’re cat is blest and very blest in you.
I have read where young women entering religious life found one of the hardest things to do was to leave their little pet or pets…and what about how the pets must feel to loose a beloved master or mistress for their entire lives. They feel it too. Sometimes, Jesus does not want the little furry pal to be left and so He grants to the owner a firm desire to never leave them. All is Grace as Little St Therese said, ALL EVERYTHING NOTHING EXCEPTED!
God bless you, Holly…Tigger
Yes, but you could have made that point without completely distorting what I said. You spoke as if I was being malicious.
(My attitude toward all threads: Oooh, let’s see how I can make THIS thread about gay people. Hmmm…) :hmmm:
and I very clearly stated in #17 that the comment was not intended to be directly at you; however, intended to be about the entire topic of SSA/HS as it applied within this thread. Frankly, I cross posted on #16 and would have made the same request in reply on 16 if I had read it after yours… your post just happened to be last I’d read, and by that point, the third in the series discussing SSA and Homosexuality as reasons to remain celebate without any attempt to relate the conversation back to the OP topic which is about celibacy being a true vocation or not a true vocation in Church understanding.
AND, I thought this entire matter cleared up in Post #23
Although this may not be YOUR position… there are others out there that do take that position and once SSA/HS is introduced into a thread, these individuals try to hijack the topic.
We are consecrated to Jesus and His Gospel at baptism. The laity is a consecrated state of life!!!
Our baptism is a vocation and call TO BE holy. A further call to Baptism is the way TO LIVE - the lifestyle or role, in the journey to holiness.
Our Baptism is our primary call and vocation from God. A further call and vocation is impossible without baptism. Once baptised every single person receives a call as to what lifestyle or role to embrace in the journey to holiness. Until this occurs, one is called by baptism to lay celibate chastity embracing lovingly Jesus and His Gospel. Such a call to a certain role and lifestyle with all the necessary Graces to holiness in that role and lifestyle t might be marriage, religious life, consecrated life in some form or the priesthood - or to the laity in a celibate chaste way of Gospel living. I received such a specific call and vocation from God though I wanted to be a monastic nun and at one stage entered the life. I knew eventually I was trying to live ‘up a creek and round a bend’. Since embracing around 30 years ago what I had dreaded initially (staying celibate chaste laity), I have been the happiest person around, at Peace and Joyful always despite many matters. My vocation and call has been confirmed in writing by an Archbishop on diocesan letterhead and by my now priest religious who is also superior in his community and an ex novice master. He has instructed me to write a written Rule of Life for this way of life I call “Bethany”
Some are called to the lay state in life and as their vocation and call - a way TO BE (baptism) and a way TO LIVE (religious, marriage, priest, single celibate laity etc.) and these roles are all very special and the necessary Graces to live out those roles to holiness are granted by The Lord. This is the very intrinsic nature and meaning of vocation. .
It is up to our free will whether we take up identified Graces or not. And if we do take them up it is thus an Actual Grace we can thank. An unbaptised person is first called to Baptism and holiness and baptism means to follow Jesus and His Gospel lovingly and at every single moment we draw breath . We grow into what our baptism means as we move on in our journey from birth to death. Of course, at birth we don’t know how to speak any language except baby language - we have to learn to speak a language and communicate. We grow from birth to death and in hope on all levels of our human nature, beloved by The Lord.
The failure of any adult Catholic, to my mind, to understand their baptism to some degree or other as a vocation and call from God is a failure in catechesis and a really big failure and a problem that does exist in The Church although “Apostolate of The Laity” document should ideally help straighten out to more accuracy the understanding of some :vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html
And this from The Consecrated Life and also a quotation from it where The Holy Father states about private consecrations to Jesus in the heart alone in celibate chastity in the laity (single state) . This means that the lay celibate or single state state in the same paragraph as other consecrated states in life “Thanksgiving for The Consecrated Life”. The words of The Holy Father and the paragraph and document in which he states them is an indication of what Rome and inspired theology thinks of the lay celibate vocation as a call and vocation from God. I’ll take a Papal Document any day over and above a post into a Catholic discussion site. Amen.
Thanksgiving for the consecrated life
2. Because the role of consecrated life in the Church is so important, I decided to convene a Synod in order to examine in depth its significance and its future prospects, especially in view of the approaching new millennium. It was my wish that the Synodal Assembly should include, together with the Bishops, a considerable number of consecrated men and women, in order that they too might contribute to the common reflection.
We are all aware of the treasure which the gift of the consecrated life in the variety of its charisms and institutions represents for the ecclesial community. *Together let us thank God *for the Religious Orders and Institutes devoted to contemplation or the works of the apostolate, for Societies of Apostolic Life, for Secular Institutes
[quote]and for other groups of consecrated persons
, as well as for all those individuals who, in their inmost hearts, dedicate themselves to God by a special consecration.
The poverty of catechesis can be that the whole Theology of Grace is not fully understood. Baptism is a Grace from God - it is a call and vocation to embrace Jesus and His Gospel lovingly. We are consecrated to Jesus and His Gospel at baptism and we will learn all that means as we journey and through our ups and downs, rights and wrongs, Grace is forever with us in some way or other. The fact that we might sin and even seriously so and then repent - repentance is a Grace from God - an Actual Grace offered and taken up by the free will of a person.
Baptism is a consecrated state in life as the document from which I have quoted “Vita Consecrata” from Vatican II rightly infers. It states clearly that the single celibate state in the laity is a consecrated state in life. Problem is it would seem (for some) that it is too vague for their liking. I don’t find it vague at all. I find it very specific and quite beautiful and a real consolation.
When I first took up this way of life around 30 years ago, I had never ever heard of private vows and thought that my priest theologian and my director and confessor just might burst out laughing at me as I stumbled over my words. He most certainly did not.
Baptism is a holy and great good in life, it is a Gift of God and a great Grace - and a consecrated state in life of it’s own. I have grown into this understanding and checked myself out all along the way with those who know in The Church and understand Catholic Theology (some priests and religious that is - then finally an Archbishop). Then the Papal Document came out and something was drawn to my attention. I have quoted in red previously what that something was. I chose not to just seek out an understanding of what I was about to do. I decided I would just live it out and seek understanding as I went, as I journeyed (hackneyed word nowadays). Pilgrimaged is more apt.
James Ch1 “ Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights”
**For example, Jesus being God knows our love for Him and that we would desire and strive to enter religious life, but He has another plan for us, so He puts in place impediments to religious life in order that we not go in that direction as our journey in life, because we are unable. It is quite natural and normal for a person who does love Jesus ardently to desire to give their whole lives to Him. **
This statement I really believe. When I was young, I definitely wanted to go into religious life. However, I soon, in my twenties, realized that my mother would never be able to live independently because of her financial picture. I knew if I left, she would have no where to go. I took care of Mom until she died at 77 4 1/2 years ago. I have been single all my life. I am now looking into becoming a Benedictine Oblate.
This has put my mind at ease, from guilt, after all these years of feeling that maybe I didn’t respond to His call. Now, I realize that I probably was not meant to, but to take care of my mother as my “vocation”.
I am sorry to read about your Mom. With such a son, I am confident where she is right now to have raised such a person. I hope that after all these years of suffering guilt over the point of your vocation, that you will quickly realize where exactly you are called. You hare fulfilling your baptismal vocation in your journey and then your next call i.e. to stay with your mother, you have completed this lifestyle or call, role, vocation. What after all IS in a name, can a rose no longer be a rose if I misidentify it as a peach?. Now The Lord calls yet to you again. Follow Him.
Many of our saints have filled numerous lifestyle calls (vocation = vocare - Latin “to call”) in their lives.
The Lord is very happy with how we try to fulfil our ardent desires for Him - even if we just might get ourselves mixed up trying to do so and ‘kicking oneself with unnecessary guilt’ over this or that. What you have done is absolutely heroic - to stay with Mom at a time when she really needed you. Your Mom was financially stressed and you could help relieve this suffering - what kind of Master asks a person to leave a parent when they need them most. You have sacrificed yourself and an ardent desire to care for your neighbour (your Mom) out of love. That is absolutely heroic and a testament a witness to the driving positive power of love in our world. What a conflict to have to resolve - to leave and enter religious life or to stay help Mom out. You chose well in choosing to care lovingly for another sacrificing your own desires. You followed where Jesus and His Grace were leading you, otherwise you would not be experiencing Peace right now and able to resolve a conflict and cause of suffering within your soul in the past.
God bless you further and richly.
Christianity at its heart is not about gay robes, happy parties and pious eyes and hands. At the heart of Christianity is a Crucified Lord now Glorified, who still bears the marks of His Own Suffering. At the heart of our living Catholic Faith is a cross and self sacrifice and for Love. What a witness you have given - and indeed are giving.
The very first thing that beast will do is try to drive Peace from our hearts. Jesus said “My Peace I give to you” - not can give, might give, shall give or will give. We have His Peace already and it is a precious Gift indeed from His Loving Heart. If that thing called satan or its workers can drive Peace from us, then it has a ‘door in’ - an open door to try to do all sorts of mischief within our soul.
Psalm 34 " The rich have wanted, and have suffered hunger: but they that seek the Lord shall not be deprived of any good.  Come, children, hearken to me: I will teach you the fear of the Lord.  Who is the man that desireth life: who loveth to see good days?  Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.  Turn away from evil and do good:
[quote]seek after peace and pursue it.
I will keep it in prayer that you will find Jesus in a full, rewarding and fulfilling way and perhaps in the Benedictine oblate vocation for lay people. It is a holy vocation and for single people or celibate chaste lay people and would mean that you are in the Benedictine family. May they embrace you lovingly and lead you to His Heart, wherever it leads. There is so much work to be done in our world and the hour is late.
God bless you richly and may His Peace and His Joy reign in your heart all your journey.
Thank you very much, Lakotak, for sharing that you have found Peace - may The Lord reward you for I have nothing, only what He might give me. And He will richly reward you, I know.
Peace of Soul is a Divine Springboard as it were into Heaven and His Heart and without limitation and finally after our own time and sufferings here (recall the Hail Holy Queen prayer) here, into the grateful arms of Jesus. His Grace always is with us - but we need to respond with our free will to His Graces. Even in suffering, we can experience great Peace and Joy if The Lord so wills. And His Will is always for our Peace and Joy - if we will allow Him. Free will is just what it states.
"All is Grace’ - St Therese of Lisieux
God bless you once more …and again!
Thank you, you have made a difficult week for me a very Joyful week - Tigger
Hail, Holy Queen
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve:
to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.
Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus,
O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
Pray for us, Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the Promises of Christ.
catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=122 (All paragraphing and formatting is mine - and the final line is mine and the traditional conclusion to “The Hail Holy Queen” prayer)
Basically and generally speaking, there are three signs of a particular vocation or call from God:
*]Attraction to the way of life, the role in The Church
*]Ability to lead that life, including sound motivation
*]Acceptance into the life
With religious life acceptance is final profession. With the priesthood, ordination. With marriage, the actual marriage. And all Third Orders and Oblates have a ritual that is final acceptance into their religious family.
For the single celibate chaste lay person. Acceptance comes about by sound and holy, educated, spiritual direction and confirmation by same that one is indeed called to the single life of lay celibate chastity. It is unwise to embrace the single celibate chaste way of life outside of some Catholic Church established role or way of life without undergoing sound, holy and educated spiritual direction and on an ongoing basis. Celibate chastity living in and for the secular world can have many distractions and even much temptation.
It is not an easy way of life and has it’s particular and peculiar sufferings and crosses as all vocations do. It also has rich rewards and much Joy and Peace if one is called to the role and lifestyle, the particular duties, mission and service to Jesus and His Church. Jesus has told us that we give to Him will be returned a hundredfold…and it is easily that and so much more.
The harvest is indeed rich, the labourers are few. The hour grows late.
“Pecular” (distinctive in nature or character from others.)… suffering and crosses, I mean, unique to the single chaste way of life or role, lifestyle…