Is Protestantism a "watered down" version of Christianity?


#1

Hello and good day to all -

Does anyone here believe that any form of Protestantism contains the complete faith that was taught by the Apostles? The contrasting views of Protestantism seem to conflict with any of the eldest forms of Christian faith. Eastern Orthodox churches as well as the Roman Catholic Church all carry aspects such as: the priesthood, the Bishopric, sacraments, holy liturgies and others. Many Protestant faiths deny these aspects.

Please don’t get me wrong. In no way do I believe that any protestant is somehow less a Christian. My question concerns only the pratice of the faith.

Blessings,
Subrosa


#2

[quote=Subrosa]Hello and good day to all -

Does anyone here believe that any form of Protestantism contains the complete faith that was taught by the Apostles? The contrasting views of Protestantism seem to conflict with any of the eldest forms of Christian faith. Eastern Orthodox churches as well as the Roman Catholic Church all carry aspects such as: the priesthood, the Bishopric, sacraments, holy liturgies and others. Many Protestant faiths deny these aspects.

Please don’t get me wrong. In no way do I believe that any protestant is somehow less a Christian. My question concerns only the pratice of the faith.

Blessings,
Subrosa
[/quote]

I don’t think so. No protestant church teaches all the stuff on Mary (i.e. I.C., Assumption, ect.), The Sacrement (like confession, no real presence that I have any church espouse). And the list could go on and on. So no, I don’t think that any Protestant church has the Complete Faith taught by the aposltes.


#3

I would say some “protestant” churches are at least similar, for example the Anglican, the orthodox, eastern, etc.
I wouldn’t call them “watered down” they simply made some mistakes. I have many non Catholic friends who live their faith and put many of us Catholics to shame.


#4

[quote=Tom]I would say some “protestant” churches are at least similar, for example the Anglican, the orthodox, eastern, etc.
I wouldn’t call them “watered down” they simply made some mistakes. I have many non Catholic friends who live their faith and put many of us Catholics to shame.
[/quote]

That’s true, but we are not talking about the people, we are talking about the faiths. The various people in Protestant churches often have great faith that would put many Catholics to shame. However, the carious Protestant churches themselves are watered down.


#5

I also would not say “watered down” - I would say thery do not yet have the full revelation of Christ.

And I agree that no group is exactly the same, since the best “simple” definition of Catholic I have heard is agreement with the Magisterium, 7 and only 7 sacraments, and the authority of the Pope.


#6

[quote=Tom]I would say some “protestant” churches are at least similar, for example the Anglican, the orthodox, eastern, etc.
I wouldn’t call them “watered down” they simply made some mistakes. I have many non Catholic friends who live their faith and put many of us Catholics to shame.
[/quote]

What you say is true.

There are traditional protestant groups, such as Traditional Anglicanism and Lutheranism that mimic the even more Traditional churches I mentioned. Many protestants put Catholics to shame when practicing thier faith. Then again, many protestants are just as shameful. But this is another topic.

Please consider my question. Let’s take, for instance, the Evangelicals lack, or even denial of the priesthood and bishops. This practice is well established, biblically. Yet these groups do not practice this in thier faith. Are they not practicing what is taught in the bible? It seems to me that they are not.

And how about more liberal Anglicanism? Admitting women to the priesthood and Bishopric runs against the grain of the traditions of the ancient churches. How do you view this practice with respect to my question?

Blessings,
Subrosa


#7

Does anyone here believe that any form of Protestantism contains the complete faith that was taught by the Apostles? <<<

No, they do not. Even “watered-down” as some have suggested is too complimentary. Many Protestant faiths, when one considers their doctrines and interpretations, seem to be based entirely on an anti-Catholic stance; i.o.w, if the Catholics accept it, we reject it.

Now if the RCC has the fullness of truth, and one has a propensity to do anything and everything counter to that church because of prejudice, hatred, or bias, then one is guaranteed to have virtually no truth at all.

Thal59


#8

[quote=Thal59]>>>Does anyone here believe that any form of Protestantism contains the complete faith that was taught by the Apostles? <<<

No, they do not. Even “watered-down” as some have suggested is too complimentary. Many Protestant faiths, when one considers their doctrines and interpretations, seem to be based entirely on an anti-Catholic stance; i.o.w, if the Catholics accept it, we reject it.

Now if the RCC has the fullness of truth, and one has a propensity to do anything and everything counter to that church because of prejudice, hatred, or bias, then one is guaranteed to have virtually no truth at all.

Thal59
[/quote]

That’s pretty accurate. Protestantism is worse than just “lacking” something: it is a heresy; and Protestants are heretics. Protestants have no faith at all. Anyone who rejects one single dogma of the Catholic Church loses absolutely all faith, if they ever had it to begin with.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum: "Faith, as the Church teaches, is “that supernatural virtue by which, through the help of God and through the assistance of His grace, we believe what he has revealed to be true, not on account of the intrinsic truth perceived by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself, the Revealer, who can neither deceive nor be deceived” (Conc. Vat., Sess. iii., cap. 3). If then it be certain that anything is revealed by God, and this is not believed, then nothing whatever is believed by divine Faith: for what the Apostle St. James judges to be the effect of a moral deliquency, the same is to be said of an erroneous opinion in the matter of faith. “Whosoever shall offend in one point, is become guilty of all” (Ep. James ii., 10). Nay, it applies with greater force to an erroneous opinion. For it can be said with less truth that every law is violated by one who commits a single sin, since it may be that he only virtually despises the majesty of God the Legislator. But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honour God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith. “In many things they are with me, in a few things not with me; but in those few things in which they are not with me the many things in which they are will not profit them” (S. Augustinus in Psal. liv., n. 19). And this indeed most deservedly; for they, who take from Christian doctrine what they please, lean on their own judgments, not on faith; and not “bringing into captivity every understanding unto the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. x., 5), they more truly obey themselves than God. “You, who believe what you like, believe yourselves rather than the gospel” (S. Augustinus, lib. xvii., Contra Faustum Manichaeum, cap. 3).

By not gathering with Jesus in His Church and believing what He has revealed, Protestants have been scattered and are, objectively speaking, enemies of God.

The following is the link to the entire encyclical quoted above, which everyone should read.

thecatholicfaith.blogspot.com/2006/02/satis-cognitum-papal-encyclical-on.html


#9

[quote=USMC]That’s pretty accurate. Protestantism is worse than just “lacking” something: it is a heresy; and Protestants are heretics. Protestants have no faith at all. Anyone who rejects one single dogma of the Catholic Church loses absolutely all faith, if they ever had it to begin with.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum: "Faith, as the Church teaches, is “that supernatural virtue by which, through the help of God and through the assistance of His grace, we believe what he has revealed to be true, not on account of the intrinsic truth perceived by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself, the Revealer, who can neither deceive nor be deceived” (Conc. Vat., Sess. iii., cap. 3). If then it be certain that anything is revealed by God, and this is not believed, then nothing whatever is believed by divine Faith: for what the Apostle St. James judges to be the effect of a moral deliquency, the same is to be said of an erroneous opinion in the matter of faith. “Whosoever shall offend in one point, is become guilty of all” (Ep. James ii., 10). Nay, it applies with greater force to an erroneous opinion. For it can be said with less truth that every law is violated by one who commits a single sin, since it may be that he only virtually despises the majesty of God the Legislator. But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honour God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith. “In many things they are with me, in a few things not with me; but in those few things in which they are not with me the many things in which they are will not profit them” (S. Augustinus in Psal. liv., n. 19). And this indeed most deservedly; for they, who take from Christian doctrine what they please, lean on their own judgments, not on faith; and not “bringing into captivity every understanding unto the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. x., 5), they more truly obey themselves than God. “You, who believe what you like, believe yourselves rather than the gospel” (S. Augustinus, lib. xvii., Contra Faustum Manichaeum, cap. 3).

By not gathering with Jesus in His Church and believing what He has revealed, Protestants have been scattered and are, objectively speaking, enemies of God.

The following is the link to the entire encyclical quoted above, which everyone should read.

thecatholicfaith.blogspot.com/2006/02/satis-cognitum-papal-encyclical-on.html
[/quote]

I appreciate your honesty USMC, I suspect more people adhere to this then let on.
BH


#10

[quote=Subrosa]Does anyone here believe that any form of Protestantism contains the complete faith that was taught by the Apostles?
[/quote]

how could that be ever possible being Protestantism a heresy?


#11

[quote=USMC]That’s pretty accurate. Protestantism is worse than just “lacking” something: it is a heresy; and Protestants are heretics. Protestants have no faith at all. Anyone who rejects one single dogma of the Catholic Church loses absolutely all faith, if they ever had it to begin with.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum: "Faith, as the Church teaches, is “that supernatural virtue by which, through the help of God and through the assistance of His grace, we believe what he has revealed to be true, not on account of the intrinsic truth perceived by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself, the Revealer, who can neither deceive nor be deceived” (Conc. Vat., Sess. iii., cap. 3). If then it be certain that anything is revealed by God, and this is not believed, then nothing whatever is believed by divine Faith: for what the Apostle St. James judges to be the effect of a moral deliquency, the same is to be said of an erroneous opinion in the matter of faith. “Whosoever shall offend in one point, is become guilty of all” (Ep. James ii., 10). Nay, it applies with greater force to an erroneous opinion. For it can be said with less truth that every law is violated by one who commits a single sin, since it may be that he only virtually despises the majesty of God the Legislator. But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honour God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith. “In many things they are with me, in a few things not with me; but in those few things in which they are not with me the many things in which they are will not profit them” (S. Augustinus in Psal. liv., n. 19). And this indeed most deservedly; for they, who take from Christian doctrine what they please, lean on their own judgments, not on faith; and not “bringing into captivity every understanding unto the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. x., 5), they more truly obey themselves than God. “You, who believe what you like, believe yourselves rather than the gospel” (S. Augustinus, lib. xvii., Contra Faustum Manichaeum, cap. 3).

By not gathering with Jesus in His Church and believing what He has revealed, Protestants have been scattered and are, objectively speaking, enemies of God.

The following is the link to the entire encyclical quoted above, which everyone should read.

thecatholicfaith.blogspot.com/2006/02/satis-cognitum-papal-encyclical-on.html
[/quote]

Hi USMC -

I understand your position concerning heretics, and I agree. However, can those who were raised in their particular faiths be held responsible for what occured? Consider this passage from the Catholic Catechism…

**

**818 **

"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
Can we condemn any who seek Christ? I think not.

Subrosa**


#12

Perhaps the term “watered down” should be defined. If I make a soup and do not remove anything but add water it becomes “watered down” does it not? Everything which originally was in the soup is still there, but “water” has been added. This is a poor analogy for protestant churches which in general reject at least some of the Christian faith.


#13

[quote=USMC] Anyone who rejects one single dogma of the Catholic Church loses absolutely all faith, if they ever had it to begin with.
[/quote]

Since this statement clearly goes against current Catholic Church teaching does this include …


#14

Hi USMC -

I understand your position concerning heretics, and I agree. However, can those who were raised in their particular faiths be held responsible for what occured? Consider this passage from the Catholic Catechism…

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

** Can we condemn any who seek Christ? I think not.

Subrosa**

I would never charge a person with the sin of separation if they never separated themselves from the Catholic Church. A Protestant who is born in a heretical sect is not guilty of the sin of separation, but with the sin of heresy.

What is worse: the sin of separation, or the sin of heresy?

The sin of heresy is the worst sin a person can commit. It is even more serious than abortion. The only sin more grievous than heresy is formal hatred of God, which, except for rare situations, only the devils and damned are capable of.

St. Thomas: “The sin of unbelief [heresy] is greater than any sin which occurs in the perversion of morals.”

Fr. Felix Sarda y Salvany: “With the exception of formal hatred against God, which constitutes the deadliest of all sins and of which the creature is rarely culpable – unless he be in Hell – the gravest of all sins are those against faith. The reason is evident. Faith is the foundation of the supernatural order, and sin is sin insofar as it attacks this supernatural order at one or another point; hence that is the greatest sin which attacks this order at its very foundations… Hence, heretical doctrines – and works inspired by them – constitute the greatest of all sins, with the exception of formal hatred of God, of which only the demons in Hell and the damned are capable. Liberalism, then, which is heresy, and all the works of Liberalisn, which are heretical works, are the gravest sins known in the code of the Christian law.” (Liberalism is a Sin: This work, at the time of its publication in 1899, was given the highest praise and endorsement by the Holy Office.)

In our day of pluralism, we have lost the sense of just how serious an evil heresy is. Many people are keenly aware of how evil abortion is, yet they are not phased by the sin of heresy, which is far worse.

Father Faber: "The crowning disloyalty to God is heresy. It is the sin of sins, the very loathsomest of things which God looks down upon in this malignant world. Yet how little do we understand of its excessive hatefulness! It is the polluting of God’s truth, which is the worst of all impurities. Yet how light we make of it! We look at it, and are calm. We touch it and do not shudder. We mix with it, and have no fear. We see it touch holy things, and we have no sense of sacrilege. We breathe its odour, and show no signs of detestation or disgust. Some of us affect its friendship; and some even extenuate its guilt. We do not love God enough to be angry for His glory. We do not love men enough to be charitably truthful for their souls. (Father Frederick Faber)"


#15

Dear user who’s username is in captial letters,

This intense hostility towards non-Catholic Christians is not the position of the Church as indicated in the Catechism. Protestants are seperated BRETHEREN in Christ Jesus. I’d fancy you convincing anyone otherwise.

Good day,
Tony


#16

[quote=Tom]Since this statement clearly goes against current Catholic Church teaching does this include …
[/quote]

There’s no such thing as “current Catholic Church teaching.” The Church’s teachings are perennial. They have never changed nor will they ever.


#17

[quote=desire the end]Dear user who’s username is in captial letters,

This intense hostility towards non-Catholic Christians is not the position of the Church as indicated in the Catechism. Protestants are seperated BRETHEREN in Christ Jesus. I’d fancy you convincing anyone otherwise.

Good day,
Tony
[/quote]

Why do you think Protestants are called “seperated” brethren? It is because they are seperated from the Church; and anyone who is seperated from the Church is lost.

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

I am not hostile towards Protestants who are Protestants through ignorance. On the other hand, I am very hostile towards the heresy of Protestantism (which separates souls from the Church, and lead them into error). Anyone who cares about the salvation of Protestants will have to hate Protestantism, since it is a heresy that leads souls to hell.

No one should be hostile towards a Protestantism that is one through ignorance, rather than malice; but we should be hostile to those Protestants who attacks the Church and lead souls out of it. In fact, those kind of Protestants should be our enemies.

Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): "As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. …This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. …And as for heretics, I have never spared them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that the Church’s enemies are also my enemies." (Manual of Patrology and History of Theology)

Do you agree with st. Jerome?


#18

[quote=desire the end]Dear user who’s username is in captial letters,

This intense hostility towards non-Catholic Christians is not the position of the Church as indicated in the Catechism. Protestants are seperated BRETHEREN in Christ Jesus. I’d fancy you convincing anyone otherwise.

Good day,
Tony
[/quote]

Protestants are heretics. The Church hasn’t changed its stance on that. They’re just trying to be a little “nicer.” Personally, I disagree with calling them “separated brethren” because it’s almost an oxymoron. In order for them to be our brethren, they must be in union with us…not separated.

BTW, they’re not formal heretics like Luther and the founders of the different Protestant sects were. Protestants are material heretics.


#19

It just goes to show you that there are anti-protestants just as much as there are anti-catholics. Such seething hate can be felt from one or two of the posts in this thread. But it’s no skin off my back. When USMC meets me in Heaven I will have a BIG hug waiting! :wink:

To answer the OP:

I guess I can see how catholics would tend to look at protestantism as ‘watered down’. You believe you have the ‘fullness’ of Truth (though I am still not quite sure what ‘fullness’ actually entails) and anything ‘less’ (as protestantism is looked on by catholics) is ‘watered down’. Ok, go ahead and keep that attitude. But of course you have to know that us blind and half-witted protestants just don’t see it that way. :slight_smile: I just don’t understand why catholics and protestants can’t just put down their anger and swords and focus on spreading God’s love. It’s a pipe dream I know… It doesn’t seem like we can ever get along. :frowning:


#20

[quote=Singinbeauty]I just don’t understand why catholics and protestants can’t just put down their anger and swords and focus on spreading God’s love. It’s a pipe dream I know… It doesn’t seem like we can ever get along. :frowning:
[/quote]

It’s because we both share one belief very strongly: heresy is the greatest of all sins (Catholic position) or at least is a very great sin for Protestants. We both believe that we have the true Gospel and that the other is teaching a false, twisted, incomplete, misunderstood, or truncated gospel. As such, we cannot put aside our differences for the mere sake of “unity” because unity entails unity of mind and belief and doctrine.

“I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.” 1 Cor. 1:10

We both want to bring the Gospel of Christ to the world, but we can’t agree on the nature of the Gospel. That’s the problem, and until one side or the other admits they’re wrong and submits to the other, then the division will never end. But we were warned about all this…

“For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.” 2 Tim. 4:3-4

“There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.” 2 Pet. 2:1

“In them (Paul’s epistles) there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.” 2 Pet. 3:16-17


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