Is Satan real?


#21

Hi everyone: Very interesting posts at least to this point. Yes Satan is real. Is he in Heaven or Hell? That’s a subject open for debate. The best arguement I have, for both his existence and residence, Book of Job 1:6. I’ll allow those interested to look it up, I’m averse to quoting passages from the Bible in any debate. That being said and as a sop to the anti-real group. I point to the fact some of my peers, of many religions, believe aforesaid book hasn’t a place in the Bible. Being nothing more then a beautifully written Moral Story not Divinely Inspired. Some of them also level the same charge against Ecclesiastes. On that Book I totally agree, Job, Umm the juries still out. Satan is mentioned several times in the Bible by another name, Accuser. There are those who believe he stands by the Throne to read off the list of your sins at Judgement. As for the person who seems to revel in being a Heritic, real or imagined, I don’t judge. I’ve been called worse in these threads.

               Dan

#22

[quote=Darrel]ok,

Let me ask you this. Is your idea based on anything concrete? Or is it just what feels right to you? Jesus said the devil is real how can you refute it with anything but opinion? Is there any basis for your opinion at all like scripture etc? Does free will factor into your opinions? The devil chose his course of his own free will just like we will. It is never wise to just make it up as you go. If you believe this is truth I would hope its based on something solid.

-D
[/quote]

There is a flaw in your reasoning. You ask for concrete, solid evidence when you don’t have it yourself. You believe the “scriptures” to be the Word of God based solely on your faith (and probably what was passed down to you during your upbringing). In that respect, your “proofs” are no more valid than mine.

There have been many people throughout history who have claimed to be speaking on behalf of God. Jesus is NOT the only example of this. So, it ultimately all boils down to whose version of “the truth” you believe. In that respect, you offer no more “concrete” evidence than I do. Faith is faith, whether it be in Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, or personal experiences of God, and basically it all boils down to our “opinion” on the validity of religious teaching on matters such as this. So, I have an opinion, this is true, as do you. Your opinion is that Jesus’ claim that there is a devil makes it true. It just so happens that I do not share your opinion. It doesn’t change the fact that we both have our “opinions.”

Thanks,
Mike


#23

[quote=mhansen]There have been many people throughout history who have claimed to be speaking on behalf of God. Jesus is NOT the only example of this.
[/quote]

just to clarify possible misunderstandings: Jesus has not claimed to be speaking on behalf of God. He proclaims Himself God. A great difference.


#24

There is a flaw in your reasoning. You ask for concrete, solid evidence when you don’t have it yourself. You believe the “scriptures” to be the Word of God based solely on your faith (and probably what was passed down to you during your upbringing). In that respect, your “proofs” are no more valid than mine.

hehe,

Actualy I have seen evidence on a supernatural level that would indicate that the devil is real. I have no proof for you but please dont assume to even begin to know anything about my upbringing.

There have been many people throughout history who have claimed to be speaking on behalf of God. Jesus is NOT the only example of this. So, it ultimately all boils down to whose version of “the truth” you believe. In that respect, you offer no more “concrete” evidence than I do. Faith is faith, whether it be in Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, or personal experiences of God, and basically it all boils down to our “opinion” on the validity of religious teaching on matters such as this. So, I have an opinion, this is true, as do you. Your opinion is that Jesus’ claim that there is a devil makes it true. It just so happens that I do not share your opinion. It doesn’t change the fact that we both have our “opinions.”

Why not ask God for the truth about this? I have faith that he will answer you. From a rational standpoint it is a great idea to just ask the almighty for the ‘one truth’. With a million opinions to choose from why not just bring your questions to God? Try asking in an adoration chapel if you can.

I used to share similar thoughts about religion as you until God showed me the truth.

-D


#25

[quote=Darrel]hehe,

Actualy I have seen evidence on a supernatural level that would indicate that the devil is real. I have no proof for you but please dont assume to even begin to know anything about my upbringing.

Why not ask God for the truth about this? I have faith that he will answer you. From a rational standpoint it is a great idea to just ask the almighty for the ‘one truth’. With a million opinions to choose from why not just bring your questions to God? Try asking in an adoration chapel if you can.

I used to share similar thoughts about religion as you until God showed me the truth.

-D
[/quote]

I got a deal for you: I’ll no longer assume anything about your upbringing and you’ll no longer assume anything about my relationship with God, or what I have or haven’t asked Him. OK?

I don’t need to go ANYWHERE to “ask God” something. In case you haven’t noticed, He’s all around us, not just in an adoration chapel.

Mike


#26

[quote=barsapp]just to clarify possible misunderstandings: Jesus has not claimed to be speaking on behalf of God. He proclaims Himself God. A great difference.
[/quote]

Ever hear of David Koresh? He did basically the same…

Again, that isn’t a unique situation. People have been doing that throughout history as well.


#27

I got a deal for you: I’ll no longer assume anything about your upbringing and you’ll no longer assume anything about my relationship with God, or what I have or haven’t asked Him. OK?

Sounds good Mike :slight_smile:

I don’t need to go ANYWHERE to “ask God” something. In case you haven’t noticed, He’s all around us, not just in an adoration chapel.

Another thing I used to think and I agree to a point. Do you believe in the real presence in Eucharist by chance?

-D


#28

Honestly, this is one I’ve been struggling with lately, but not for reasons that you may think. I can’t give you an answer to this one just yet.

But, I do know this much is true: God is present in all of us, in all things, and in all ways. By believing the way I do about this, I can see the Divine in all of us, the real presence in us, and it brings about a profound difference in the way I perceive and treat people. People are no longer “objects”, but are instead an “extension” of God. When I sit next to you on a train, for instance, I’m sitting next to a “part of God.” It makes a world of difference in the way I look at and treat people, I can honestly say. So, in that sense, yes, I believe in the real presence. I just don’t believe it is limited to the Eucharist. As a result, I treat people with the same reverence, love, and respect (at least I try to!) that I treat the Eucharist. Does that make any sense to you? Because I’m not sure it makes much sense to me now that I’ve gone back and read it. :slight_smile: Concepts like these are hard for me to put into words, and there simply aren’t enough words in the English language for me to adequately describe some of these things.

Thank you for an interesting discussion and your thought-provoking questions.

Mike


#29

[quote=mhansen]There is a flaw in your reasoning. You ask for concrete, solid evidence when you don’t have it yourself. You believe the “scriptures” to be the Word of God based solely on your faith (and probably what was passed down to you during your upbringing). In that respect, your “proofs” are no more valid than mine.

There have been many people throughout history who have claimed to be speaking on behalf of God. Jesus is NOT the only example of this. So, it ultimately all boils down to whose version of “the truth” you believe. In that respect, you offer no more “concrete” evidence than I do. Faith is faith, whether it be in Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, or personal experiences of God, and basically it all boils down to our “opinion” on the validity of religious teaching on matters such as this. So, I have an opinion, this is true, as do you. Your opinion is that Jesus’ claim that there is a devil makes it true. It just so happens that I do not share your opinion. It doesn’t change the fact that we both have our “opinions.”

Thanks,
Mike
[/quote]

I didn’t coem to faith by being taught it in my upbringing. I didn’t come to faith by just believing. I came to faith by examining what Catholicism claims and realizing that science, history, and common sense irrefutably prove that nothing else is even remotely possible. The historocity of the Gospels are essentially beyond question. To say it in a better way, there is less doubt about the fact that history contained in the gospels is true than there is that Julius Caesar ever lived. Historically it’s rock solid. My choice was whether or not to choose to follow what the Gospels say, because the fact that the things they contain are true is some of the strongest fact history can tell us.


#30

[quote=jax8686]God gives us all free will. would He withhold that from His angels? i think not. Lucifer, one of the origional Archangels, was created to reflect glory back to God Himself. Lucifer, having free will, became jealous of the glory God was receiving, and left Gods presence, or the light if you will, and went down to earth, taking 1/3 of all of Gods angels with him, that we now know as demons. Lucifer used the serpent to tempt Eve to eat the fruit, therefore the ‘entity’ of evil was there before the sin, so the ‘entity’ could not have been created by the first sin. Lucifer is more commonly called Satan, which means adversary, and Satan and his demons prowl the earth for the destruction of souls out of the same free will that was given to man, and allows him to fall from grace.
[/quote]

Can you direct me to scriptural evidence of this, or is it just church doctrine?


#31

I also often ask myself such questions about the existance of the devil. I do struggle to fully accept it.

My main question is, If God knows everything, even before it happens, and God also created everything, then he would have known about what Lucifier would do, before he had created him. So why in that case did God still create the devil, and allow him to spread pain + suffering and evil?

P.S. this has nothing to do with the post, but I don’t know who to ask, what is a refferal, like when you read someones biography it says on the webpage? Thanks in advance. :smiley:


#32

Satan’s greatest deception is making people believe he does not exist.


#33

[quote=Spyder1jcd] I find it difficult to believe that God would create angels that, in His infinite knowledge, He knew would revolt before He had even created them. It just doesn’t make sense to me that God would create an enemy for Himself.

[/quote]

It’s the same problem as to why God would create Man knowing he would fall and reject Him. And why would God create Man knowing in advance the evil that Man would do - the wars, torture, rape etc.
We don’t see things as God sees them. We don’t know the whole picture. We will one day and then we will understand. As for now we just have to believe.


#34

[quote=Lazerlike42]I didn’t coem to faith by being taught it in my upbringing. I didn’t come to faith by just believing. I came to faith by examining what Catholicism claims and realizing that science, history, and common sense irrefutably prove that nothing else is even remotely possible. The historocity of the Gospels are essentially beyond question. To say it in a better way, there is less doubt about the fact that history contained in the gospels is true than there is that Julius Caesar ever lived. Historically it’s rock solid. My choice was whether or not to choose to follow what the Gospels say, because the fact that the things they contain are true is some of the strongest fact history can tell us.
[/quote]

I appreciate your input on this. But if it was as “cut and dry” as you make it out to be, the whole world would be Catholic. So, what you see as irrefutable, obviously another does not, as most of the world is non-Christian. Again, it’s all subjective.

If proving the existence of a group of people is the sole condition required to prove the “truth” of a religion, then there are many “truths.” Buddha obviously existed. Joseph Smith existed. Mohommed existed. This can all be proven with the same degree of certainty as the New Testament. It doesn’t mean Buddhism, Mormonism, or Islam are “true.” It still takes a great deal of faith to believe the claims made by each. This includes the writers of the New Testament.

Thanks,
Mike


#35

[quote=CJE]Satan’s greatest deception is making people believe he does not exist.
[/quote]

I agree completely! :yup:

Peace,
Linda


#36

[quote=CJE]Satan’s greatest deception is making people believe he does not exist.
[/quote]

Really? Now if I were to believe that satan exists, I would think his greatest deception would be to make everyone believe their religion is the “truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.” More people have been slaughtered, and more crimes committed against humanity, in the name of God, religion, and “truth” than for any other reason you could possibly think of.


#37

[quote=mhansen]More people have been slaughtered, and more crimes committed against humanity, in the name of God, religion, and “truth” than for any other reason you could possibly think of.
[/quote]

Really?
I don’t think Ghengis Khan, Hitler or Stalin to name but three mass muderers did what they did in the name of God or religion, or “truth” for that matter.


#38

[quote=steve99]Really?
I don’t think Ghengis Khan, Hitler or Stalin to name but three mass muderers did what they did in the name of God or religion, or “truth” for that matter.
[/quote]

Methinks you need to do a little research on these things…

“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord.” --Hitler, from “Mein Kampf”, p. 46

Again, truth can be subjective (relative). I understand that ultimately truth is objective, but until we know what that truth is, it remains subjective. It is this deception, that my “truth” is “truth” and your “truth” is false, that I’m referring to. Stalin’s “truth” was atheism, and he attempted to forcibly convert the people into “worship of the State” and the Cult of Personality. Regardless of how you feel about the validity of Stalin’s “religion” or “truth”, the fact remains, it was as true to him as Catholicism is to you. So, in fact, he did do what he did for “truth.” It just wasn’t your truth… You’re actually helping me to illustrate my view on “satan’s greatest deception” in offering these examples.

If you buy into the Biblical Flood story, that it was God’s “punishment”, the God of the Bible wiped out nearly the entire world in one fell swoop. Add to that hundreds of thousands (at least) that fell in battle by the “hand of God”, and you can combine the atrocities of the three people you mentioned, multiply it thousands of times over, and you wouldn’t begin to approach the number of people the God of the Bible killed, if that version of events is your “truth.” All of these things were done “in the name of God!”–it was all attributed to God by humans, that is! And all of this because “my God is better than your God” type thinking! It’s all in the name of religion, can’t you see that?

I DON’T buy into this story, as it doesn’t jive with my belief in an unconditionally loving, merciful God. However it was RELIGION that attributed these things to God, doing unto Him a grave injustice, in my opinion.

Thanks,
Mike




#39

[quote=mhansen]Ever hear of David Koresh? He did basically the same… Again, that isn’t a unique situation. People have been doing that throughout history as well.
[/quote]

Did he (David Koresh) resurrect from the dead?

I don’t think many people remember David Koresh nowadays… For a self proclaimed God that could be a very disappointing performance… Did anyone die because of his testimony?


#40

[quote=barsapp]Did he (David Koresh) resurrect from the dead?

I don’t think many people remember David Koresh nowadays… For a self proclaimed God that could be a very disappointing performance… Did anyone die because of his testimony?
[/quote]

Ever hear of Waco? Yeah, lots of people died…

This thread has gone off on a tangent. Thank you all for your input…I’m signing off now.

Mike


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