Is "Satan" really a person? Or rather: persons. (plural)


#1

After all that I’ve experienced and thought about, (sigh) I’m finding it so hard to believe these days that Satan is really this supposed “huge galactic enemy” of good. No, instead I’m finding myself coming to the conclusion that “Satan” is actually very low in intelligence, and is rather stupid because if “he” were high in intelligence, then he would see and experience the ultimate fell-good sensations: LOVE! Surely love literally breeds intelligence. Maybe it’s like a “staircase,” you know?

Yes Catholic exorcists are truly battling real forces, this is true: but these are demons! And consider this: in order to qualify as a “demon,” mustun’t you literally and entirely hate and reject all order whatsoever? There can be no such thing as a “demonic order,” therefore!

I simply don’t understand how any evil whatsoever, even a supposed “fallen angel,” could somehow be smarter than a Catholic. Or Saint, whatever. Isn’t being Catholic or a Saint the smartest and HIGHEST of all intelligence-things one could ever climb upto?

For those Catholics who’re paranoid about somekind of “great enemy” seducing the nations, I only wish to suggest that the biggest enemy is your own self. I believe this is more “scary” than all ideas of an “evil underworld lord.”

But I’m not arguing, and I don’t intend to. I simply would appreciate all your thoughts on this matter. This can be fun. I’ll just be hanging around; and I’ll “chime in” from time to time: I won’t put anyone on the defensive–if I do, may the moderators suspend me or something. :slight_smile:

~jason~

:twocents:


#2

Satan is “smarter” than any of us. He is a fallen angel. Angels were created with a much greater intellect than humans. The thing is, Satan isn’t looking for the truth, he wants gratification and power. He deliberately chose, with full knowledge, to turn away from God. When he rebelled, other angels did so as well. These are demons. Yes, they hate each other, but they hate us more. They are unified in their goal, to bring us as well to their place of pain and suffering.

I would never say demons are stupid. Rather, they are diabolically clever (pun intended). Just look at your own life, and how they got you to sin. They obviously know what they’re doing. Someone once said it is like Satan has a playbook on you. He studies every thing you do, your every action, trying to find a weakness he can exploit. The thing is, once we are aware of that, it becomes easier for us to resist.

There is no reason, however, to be paranoid about it. While Satan is far more powerful and intelligent than we, God is infinitely greater than that. No matter what Satan does to try to mess up God’s plan, God always has another ace up his sleeve.

I would recommed you read The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. It is a collection of letters from one demon to another, with advice on tempting humans. It is quite clever.


#3

[quote=love-bias]I’m finding myself coming to the conclusion that “Satan” is actually very low in intelligence, and is rather stupid because if “he” were high in intelligence, then he would see and experience the ultimate fell-good sensations: LOVE! Surely love literally breeds intelligence. Maybe it’s like a “staircase,” you know?
[/quote]

I think it’s a mistake to associate high intelligence with love, and love with “feel-good sensations.” Many very intelligent people have also been very cruel, and many people who aren’t very bright are very loving. Some of the saints were brilliant, but many others were simple. All of them acknowledged that love of God was more important than knowledge of Him, although they acknowledged the importance of knowing the truth about God. I don’t think any of them would say that love breeds intelligence, or that intelligence breeds love. Love breeds a desire to know the beloved, but that doesn’t mean that someone who knows more necessarily loves more. Love is a choice, an act of will. It is often accompanied by good feelings, but it is possible to love even in the abscence of good feelings. Just ask anyone who’s been married for awhile–to have a good marriage, we have to love our spouses even when we don’t “feel” loving.

Yes Catholic exorcists are truly battling real forces, this is true: but these are demons! And consider this: in order to qualify as a “demon,” mustun’t you literally and entirely hate and reject all order whatsoever? There can be no such thing as a “demonic order,” therefore!

I’d never heard that demons have to reject all order. They certainly reject serving God, but it’s entirely possible that as much as they hate to cooperate, their common hatred of all that is good would unite them against God and His people.

I simply don’t understand how any evil whatsoever, even a supposed “fallen angel,” could somehow be smarter than a Catholic. Or Saint, whatever. Isn’t being Catholic or a Saint the smartest and HIGHEST of all intelligence-things one could ever climb upto?

Being a saint is the best thing any of us could be, but there’s not a necessary connection between moral goodness and intelligence. We have to become like little children to enter the Kingdom.

For those Catholics who’re paranoid about somekind of “great enemy” seducing the nations, I only wish to suggest that the biggest enemy is your own self.

I certainly agree that we need to watch out for pride, the temptation to make ourselves the centers and masters of our lives, but this does not mean that Satan does not exist. We have three great sources of temptations: the world (temptations from our environment), the flesh (temptations that originate with our own disordered desires), and the devil (temptations that come from diabolical influence). I think St. John of the Cross said that, but someone will probably correct me if I’m wrong.


#4

In the section of the catechism on Angels, we see that angels are of Spirit by nature and the Office of Angels.

So they are not people, and Satan, if we mean the devil, is a spirit (this is also in the section on Satan.).

And in that God (Jesus) is the Way, that is, the Logos, we could conclude that they reject all order, that is, ordered things, as an ordered thing comes from the primary cause, or the origin, God. Maybe it is better to say they reject God’s order, which is true Order, but order has also been vulgarized to mean sequence, and in this sense, they adhere to sequence. In the study of demons, there are ordered facts that we can conclude about them. So there is another distinction in order. But they reject the Logos.

God bless.
Aaron


#5

[quote=love-bias]After all that I’ve experienced and thought about, (sigh) I’m finding it so hard to believe these days that Satan is really this supposed “huge galactic enemy” of good. No, instead I’m finding myself coming to the conclusion that “Satan” is actually very low in intelligence, and is rather stupid because if “he” were high in intelligence, then he would see and experience the ultimate fell-good sensations: LOVE! Surely love literally breeds intelligence. Maybe it’s like a “staircase,” you know?

Yes Catholic exorcists are truly battling real forces, this is true: but these are demons! And consider this: in order to qualify as a “demon,” mustun’t you literally and entirely hate and reject all order whatsoever? There can be no such thing as a “demonic order,” therefore!

I simply don’t understand how any evil whatsoever, even a supposed “fallen angel,” could somehow be smarter than a Catholic. Or Saint, whatever. Isn’t being Catholic or a Saint the smartest and HIGHEST of all intelligence-things one could ever climb upto?

For those Catholics who’re paranoid about somekind of “great enemy” seducing the nations, I only wish to suggest that the biggest enemy is your own self. I believe this is more “scary” than all ideas of an “evil underworld lord.”

But I’m not arguing, and I don’t intend to. I simply would appreciate all your thoughts on this matter. This can be fun. I’ll just be hanging around; and I’ll “chime in” from time to time: I won’t put anyone on the defensive–if I do, may the moderators suspend me or something. :slight_smile:

~jason~

:twocents:
[/quote]

Hi Jason,

Satan was/is God’s highest created being and thus is more intelligent than any person and is probably more intelligent than the rest of the angels. But wisdom does not necssarily follow intelligence, for his decision to rebel against God was surely the most foolish decision of eternity.

All angels were created within a highly structured order by God. There are angelic principalities and rulers whom the Apostle Peter referred to as angelic “majesties”. This order exists for both angels, who remained faithful to God, and for demons, who were fallen angels who followed in Satan’s rebellion. So demons actually have a highly structured order. Even on the earth, they are ultimately working to bring a highly structured order so that all mankind will follow a single leader imposed on mankind by Satan - that leader is the anti-christ.

People who have experienced demonic encounters first hand, can absolutely attest to their intelligence, which greatly exceeds our own mental abilities. At least most do. There are some that seem less intelligent, even simplistic. Demonic abilities and power, like humans, seem to vary quite a bit. But let’s not forget, they are immortal, so they’ve lived since the beginning and have seen and heard everything. Our existence is extremely limited by comparison.

That’s one of the reasons we should never attempt to tackle them in our own strength. We need to respect them and only approach them clothed in Christ Jesus.

Being like Jesus and obtaining a level of holiness, like the Saints, is not a function of intelligence, it’s a function of wisdom and obedience to God.

Jesus warned us that Satan roams the earth looking for people he can devour. If Jesus identified Satan as the Prince of this world and as the enemy of our soul, it would behoove us to treat him that way and not dismiss him as insignificant.

David


#6

[quote=love-bias]After all that I’ve experienced and thought about, (sigh) I’m finding it so hard to believe these days that Satan is really this supposed “huge galactic enemy” of good. No, instead I’m finding myself coming to the conclusion that “Satan” is actually very low in intelligence, and is rather stupid

:twocents:
[/quote]

famous last words…


#7

so what do you do if Satan walks up to you? by some of this reasoning, he cant just kill you can he? wouldnt that be directly intefering? does he have the power to “steal” your soul?

lets say satan alters the biochemical processes and neuronal function of your brain. he changes neuronal firing patterns to make you think that he is jesus. you obviously fall down and worship “him”.

our consciousness, decision making, thoughts and patterns are all governed by biological processes. so if Satan can alter these at the molecular level, how does a person become responsible for those actions caused by that?

or is it the uninfluenced choice to do evil actually the sin? like when all your brain activity is normal, and you still do it anyway.


#8

Satan is an fallen angel!

Satan is a spirit and a person. If he was not a person, he could not have been thrown out of Heaven for opposing God. Satan is the boss of the smaller devils (other angels) that also opposed God.

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9203frs.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9511fea1.asp


#9

This is not the question! Satan and his demons tempts. A person is responsible to (with his free will) to say yes or no to the temptation from the evil spirit!


#10

Satan is smarter than us, and that’s why we rely on God and the Church. If God left us alone and had us figure things out, heaven would consist of Him, the Holy Spirit, His Son, and angels. Not his creation, because we’d be toasting in the eternal oven.

Why do you think that Satan gets pissed off so much in the Bible? Because God/Christ/Holy Spirit assists those who are being attacked. (In a way, you can say that Job wasn’t helped, but his faith in God was undeniable, and truthfully, the things happening to Job weren’t really to Job, but to people close to Job.) Satan wants us to follow him, even if we are conned into it, because he wants to bring down as many people as he can with him.

Remember the saying: misery loves company.


#11

Wow this is silly!

There are many post that contain psudeo-factual back stories and hierarchies, and all manner of speculation. It sounds like LOTR fans arguing about the “true” nature of elves, or something similar. So much speculation taken as fact, based on assumptions and folklore. Too many in fact to even address specifically so I will turn to what first caught my attention: the original post.

No, instead I’m finding myself coming to the conclusion that “Satan” is actually very low in intelligence, and is rather stupid because if “he” were high in intelligence, then he would see and experience the ultimate fell-good sensations

Well in all of your wisdom you came to a conclusion based on atrociously flawed logic. Not only is there an error of deduction when you assume that high intellect favors pleasure, but also there is a self contradiction, because Satan supposedly supports drugs and sex and other “feel good sensations”, so that would make him smart by definition of your argument supporting his stupidity.

LOVE! Surely love literally breeds intelligence. Maybe it’s like a “staircase,” you know?

I think you could work on your analogies. Also, love makes people behave irrationally and foolishly…not at all the bearer of intellect you proclaim.

in order to qualify as a “demon,” mustun’t you literally and entirely hate and reject all order whatsoever?

Is that demons or anarchists? Hmmm I may have some demons that skateboard by my house everyday then :wink:

I simply don’t understand how any evil whatsoever, even a supposed “fallen angel,” could somehow be smarter than a Catholic

Heh…thinking about the content of your post… ->>>Insert your own rude catholic offending comments here<<<<-
:slight_smile:

For those Catholics who’re paranoid about somekind of “great enemy” seducing the nations, I only wish to suggest that the biggest enemy is your own self.

Well we finally agree on something. I think this whole “boogey man” mentality is just away of passing the blame, and not having to be responsible for your own shortcomings or misfortunes.


#12

[quote=Wormwood]Wow this is silly!

There are many post that contain psudeo-factual back stories and hierarchies, and all manner of speculation. It sounds like LOTR fans arguing about the “true” nature of elves, or something similar. So much speculation taken as fact, based on assumptions and folklore.
[/quote]

Interesting. You dismiss other’s contributions on this thread as false speculation based on your own personal judgement which is itself speculation. Most of what’s been stated here is properly based on scripture and tradition, not that everyone has taken the time to document the source, which requires more work, but nevertheless, it is.

For instance, when I stated earlier, that angels and demons fit into a structured hierarhy, not only is that based on experience (see the books written by Catholic exorcist Father Amorth), but it is also derived from scripture which states in Ephesians 3:10 “His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities **in the heavenly realms **according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.” And again in Ephesians 6:12, it says, “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”

There are more references in scripture, but the point is made. If there are rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms and we struggle against these evil authorities, then we can know for certainty that demons fall into the authority structure with rulers and “principalities” (aka “princes”) over them.

We also get a wonderfuly clear picture of this hierarchy from the book of Daniel, starting in chapte 10, an angel has appeared to Daniel and says, "Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.” . . . and later it follows in verse 20, "So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince).”

It can’t be more clear that the heavenly realms are divided into spiritual princedoms and kingdoms and that there are rulers who are doing battle over our future and souls.

David


#13

To further illustrate the superiority of Satan, based purely on scripture, here is a verse from the Book of Jude (1:9), “In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.”

If the archangel Michael “did not dare” to speak slanderously against Satan, that respect should tell us something about Satan as a being. See also, how Jude admonishes men not to speak abusively against angels and demons, things they do not understand.

I bring a few of these verses out to illustrate for Wormwood and our original poster to educate them.

David


#14

Interesting. You dismiss other’s contributions on this thread as false speculation based on your own personal judgement which is itself speculation. Most of what’s been stated here is properly based on scripture and tradition, not that everyone has taken the time to document the source, which requires more work, but nevertheless, it is

Well please forgive me, it is just funny hearing people give seemingly first hand accounts of beings that no one can even prove exist. Perhaps the shortcoming IS my own. I have no doubt that there were many writings on the subject of the organization, as other ancient cultures have similar texts and lists. If you like the archangel Michael, you will like Ninurta from ancient summerian texts as he is basically the same guy. But again, I did not mean to be dismissive of other poster’s contributions, I guess I just assume everyone has learned to disregaurd the coarseness of my posts. Thanks.


#15

I think it’s common sense to assume that any being who is older than the Earth might be fairly serious with regards to mental capacity. If he was allowed to tempt Jesus 2000 years ago he is allowed to tempt us.

-D


#16

[quote=Wormwood]Well please forgive me, it is just funny hearing people give seemingly first hand accounts of beings that no one can even prove exist. Perhaps the shortcoming IS my own. I have no doubt that there were many writings on the subject of the organization, as other ancient cultures have similar texts and lists. If you like the archangel Michael, you will like Ninurta from ancient summerian texts as he is basically the same guy. But again, I did not mean to be dismissive of other poster’s contributions, I guess I just assume everyone has learned to disregaurd the coarseness of my posts. Thanks.
[/quote]

You think scripture is just ancient fictional stories, not God’s Word? And that anything you can’t prove (like angels, God and demons) is/are fantasy? And that “mythological” figures from ancient cultures are just interchangeable cultural icons?

I’m not familiar with your posts. I had assumed you were on a Catholic forum because you take spiritual issues seriously and like to discuss. Sounds like I was wrong. I’ll make a note to ignore your posts in the future. Thanks for the heads-up.

David


#17

**Wormwood, This is just what he wants from his followers to question and deny his existence.,he sows tares among God’s wheat he puts false doctrine into the world and he perverts the Bible, and distorts the Word of God,

Science will never find Satan. Its instruments will never be able to measure or prove the reality of spiritual things. The demonic is known by other means.

We conceal our true faces behind masks, driven by fear to play a role rather than to allow others to see us as we really are. (Dan Vander Lugt)**

Sara


#18

**Satan is a fallen angel , he is a spirt who fell from Grace, at one time he loved and had Faith in God.

He also has many legions of devils being his minions, Satans sin originated in pride, then grew into self- deception. then ended in rebellion. His ultimate goal is the destruction of the human race .

Dont ever underestimate him.!

Just wanted to answer your original question and or topic.**

Sara


#19

[quote=Wormwood]Well please forgive me, it is just funny hearing people give seemingly first hand accounts of beings that no one can even prove exist. Perhaps the shortcoming IS my own. I have no doubt that there were many writings on the subject of the organization, as other ancient cultures have similar texts and lists. If you like the archangel Michael, you will like Ninurta from ancient summerian texts as he is basically the same guy. But again, I did not mean to be dismissive of other poster’s contributions, I guess I just assume everyone has learned to disregaurd the coarseness of my posts. Thanks.
[/quote]

There’s nothing saying Ninurta and Michael can’t be the same Angel. The revelation made to the Jews is not different from the pieces of truths, and divine experiences from other religions…that I know of.

God bless.
Aaron


#20

[quote=Wormwood]Wow this is silly!

There are many post that contain psudeo-factual back stories and hierarchies, and all manner of speculation. It sounds like LOTR fans arguing about the “true” nature of elves, or something similar. So much speculation taken as fact, based on assumptions and folklore. Too many in fact to even address specifically so I will turn to what first caught my attention: the original post.

[/quote]

This post brought this story to mind.
A woman had to fly cross-country to attend a business conference but she hated flying.

Being a Christian she took her bible with her and as soon as she was seated in her seat on the plane, she took it out and began reading it for comfort.

A man soon sat down next to her just as the plane started taxiing away from the gate.

He looked over and saw her bible, but said nothing.

Several minutes later as they were now in the air, he leaned over and said, “I see you’re reading the bible.”

She looked at him, nodded and said, “Yes, I find much comfort in it.”

He sneered and said, “You don’t really believe that stuff do you?”

She replied, “I certainly do.”

He gave a wicked little smile and said, “How about that whole Jonah thing? You really believe that Jonah was swallowed by a whale?”

She said that she did – it was in the Bible.

He sat back and said – “There isn’t a whale alive that could swallow a man – their throats are too small. SO, how’s it possible?”

The woman said, “Well, when I get to heaven, I’ll ask Jonah.”

The man said, “What if Jonah’s not in heaven?”

She replied, “In that case, YOU can ask him.”


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