Is sin natural?


#1

Are there any refutations out there to the naturalness of sin?

I have a feeling inside of me that sin is definately NOT natural, but i don’t know how to prove it.

I was having a discussion (/arguement) with a person close to me on this… She said murder was not natural, but another sin, masturbation, however, was. This seems to me like a contradiction, as both are gravely mortal sins.

Can anyone prove that sin is not natural?

Thanks in advance.


#2

Sin is the result of failing to do what God expects of us, whether in thought, word or deed. We all sin and have the natural inclination to sin. We were born with this fallen nature. Rom 3:23


#3

What did she mean by natural? It sounds like she might be confusing natural as descriptive and as normative.

David


#4

It is the act of **doing ** wrong in God’s sight that an act becomes sin. The unnatural desire within us is temptation, but this is not sin in itself. It is only **when we act on the temptation ** that one sins.


#5

[quote=justcatholic]Sin is the result of failing to do what God expects of us, whether in thought, word or deed. We all sin and have the natural inclination to sin. We were born with this fallen nature. Rom 3:23
[/quote]

This verse just shows that everyone has sinned, not that it is natural. I am inclined to think that, even though everyone sins, it is an unnatural act since we were created by god to love and worship him, not to turn against him.

[quote=David Brown]What did she mean by natural? It sounds like she might be confusing natural as descriptive and as normative.

David
[/quote]

Natural as in your body needs it and it isn’t a sin.

[quote=justcatholic]It is the act of **doing **wrong in God’s sight that an act becomes sin. The unnatural desire within us is temptation, but this is not sin in itself. It is only **when we act on the temptation **that one sins.
[/quote]

So is sin the unnatural thing, or is temptation? Or both?


#6

If it is “natural as in your body needs it,” then she is wrong in saying masturbation is natural because masturbation is not needed. Food, water, sleep are needed, masturbation is not.

Does a drug addict’s body need the drug?

If you understand natural in the sense of “what people normally do,” then masturbation might be natural but it tells us nothing about its sinfulness. “Natural” in that sense is descriptive and does not contain a moral judgment. She is smuggling in the moral evaluation by assuming “is” or “is common” means “is morally Ok” or “is not sinful.” It’s a version of the so-called naturalistic fallacy. The same problem occurs if “natural” is understood in terms of desires (and since one of the effects of original sin is a disordering of our desires we can’t count on their rectitidue).

You could show her the view of sexual morality in Humanae Vitae (or in Genesis 1 and 2) where sex is designed for two purposes: (1) procreation and (2) unity of spouses. Masturbation acts against both God given purposes and is therefore wrong. (I am not particularly a fan of mentioning the “sin of Onan” in Genesis 38:8-10.)

In addition to asking about the meaning of “natural” you might want to find out from her what makes something a sin.

Good luck,

David


#7

[quote=Nekić]Natural as in your body needs it and it isn’t a sin.
[/quote]

That’s not what natural means in relation to sin. Natural means in conformance with natural law.

– Mark L. Chance.


#8

[quote=Nekić]I was having a discussion (/arguement) with a person close to me on this… She said murder was not natural, but another sin, masturbation, however, was. This seems to me like a contradiction, as both are gravely mortal sins.
[/quote]

There might be an argument to be made that EVERY sin springs from a natural root – that is to say has some origin in the goodness of creation – but which has become corrupted.

Masturbation wouldn’t exist if people weren’t wired to enjoy sex. Does that mean that sex is evil? No, it is natural, but it was created for a purpose. Misused and corrupted it becomes a problem.

We wouldn’t have an epidemic of obesity if food didn’t taste good. Again, a good creation is overindulged, misused, and corrupted.

Drug addicts have found chemicals that directly stimulate their brain to produce effects like euphoria, excitement, or serenity. Our ability to experience those emotions isn’t evil, but we’ve found a way to corrupt them as well.

–Bill


#9

I thknk we have gotten off the topic. I know how to prove that masturbation is a sin, but the problem at hand has, in my point of view, not been answered.

Is sin itself natural? Is it natural to sin, in general?


#10

[quote=Nekić]Is sin itself natural? Is it natural to sin, in general?
[/quote]

No to both questions.

– Mark L. Chance.


#11

[quote=mlchance]No to both questions.

– Mark L. Chance.
[/quote]

Thank you. Can you tell me why? Can you prove it?


#12

[quote=mlchance]No to both questions.

– Mark L. Chance.
[/quote]

I disagree. I think that the writings of Paul (especially the 1st chapter of I Corinthians and the 7th chapter of Romans) prove that sin is natural for the “natural man,” in that it is what the “natural man” does “naturally.”

The hitch is that humans are called to be “spiritual men,” or supernatural beings, in Christ.

DaveBj


#13

Nekic’ -

Everybody’s argued whether humans are base-good with learned evil or base-evil with learned good. If humans are base-good (see enlightenment) then we will learn from history and the world will increasingly become more perfect. If humans are base-good (see marxism) then communism would work wonderfully.

"God saw all he created and it was good."
Humans fall into the “all he created” category.
Therefore, humans are base-good.
However, because of original sin, this base-good is covered up and “poopified” (as my friend says) by sin. Sin is a genetic disorder that has infected the entire human race and every time a couple makes a baby, they make a baby with this genetic disorder and there’s no way to stop it.
Baptism is God’s way of saying "I’ll overlook this disease."
Kind of like a teacher “okay, fine, you have ADHD and I realize it’s a lot harder for you to sit still in class, but you do need to be able to sit still. I know it’s hard for you and I’ll forgive you, but if you act up too much you’re still going to get in trouble. But I love you and I want you to succeed, and I realize that you can’t succeed without conquering this ADHD as much as you can. You’re going to struggle against it your whole life, but it will be worth it.”

Hope that helps… if it doesn’t just cack at me.

DaveBj - about your signature, somebody said he’s our German Shepherd. It was good until a friend of mine overused it and ruined it. Thought you might be able to like it, though.


#14

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