Is the bible all we need 3?


#1

I am in conversation with a baptist friend and they posed the following and I am not sure how to answer all these questions?
can someone help?

5TH, PASSAGES THAT URGE CHRISTIANS TO FOLLOW TRADITION REFER TO THE INSPIRED TRADITION GIVEN BY THE APOSTLES, NOT TO THE UNINSPIRED TRADITIONS OF MEN WHO HAVE COME AFTER THEM.

The term “tradition” is used in two ways in the New Testament. 1st it refers to apostolic doctrine given by divine inspiration (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6). The churches are bound to obey this tradition as it is supernaturally recorded in the New Testament Scripture. Second, tradition refers to uninspired teachings that religious teachers attempt to add to the Scripture and by which they attempt to bind the lives of men (Matt. 15:1-6; Mk. 7:9-13; Col. 2:8). In this sense, tradition is condemned, as we see in the following references:

“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:9).

“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye” (Mark 7:13).

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ” (Colossians 2:8).

We are thankful that the Lord that has given us a complete and sufficient Revelation and that we are not dependent upon extra-biblical prophecies, visions, voices, tongues, or traditions. In the Bible we have everything the churches need for faith and practice.

Therefore, though it is true that “the Bible itself is a sort of tradition” this does not mean that it is merely another of various authoritative traditions. The Bible alone is GOD INSPIRED tradition. That is what sets it apart from every other writing. The Bible claims to be the inspired Word of God. Over two thousand times the Bible uses phrases such as “thus saith the Lord.”


#2

Go to this thread forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=65636&highlight=teach. If my response does not answer your question, come back, refine the question, and we’ll talk some more.

I commend you for undertaking this task with your friend. Don’t push him too hard. Baptists are highly invested in “*sola Scriptura.” *You won’t budge him with your responses. The Holy Spirit will have to work on him over time.


#3

<< 1st it refers to apostolic doctrine given by divine inspiration (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6). The churches are bound to obey this tradition as it is supernaturally recorded in the New Testament Scripture. >>

First sentence is true. Second sentence also true, but 2 Thess 2:15 does not refer to “New Testament Scripture” (meaning a 66-book biblical canon), it refers to both oral and written supernaturally inspired apostolic teaching. Another problem again is the meaning and interpretation of this tradition, that’s where the authority of the Church enters.

<< Therefore, though it is true that “the Bible itself is a sort of tradition” this does not mean that it is merely another of various authoritative traditions. The Bible alone is GOD INSPIRED tradition. >>

Ask them to give you the biblical verse that teaches “the Bible alone is God inspired tradition.” There is no verse that teaches that, and quite a few that contradict it: 1 Thess 2:13; 2 Thess 2:15; 1 Cor 2:4,7,13 off the top.

There is no biblical verse that teaches (A) what the “Bible alone” is, and (B) that the “Bible alone” is God inspired tradition. If the person wants to say all God inspired oral teaching of the apostles was lost or corrupted by the early Church, that’s another issue. But there is no verse that teaches the “Bible alone” is God inspired tradition. You have them nailed right there. :thumbsup:

Then you might go into a little elaboration of what the early Fathers meant by tradition, and here is a little help from Yves Congar:

(A) The true Catholic Faith and true interpretation of the Scriptures is found only in the Church which is bound up with the succession of its ministers (apostolic succession, not of doctrine only, but of its bishops, ministers, pastors succeeding the authority of the apostles);

(B) The “rule of faith” or “rule of truth” was not the whole of Tradition; it may be the principal part, but there are other things transmitted from the apostles by tradition: rules of conduct/practice, behavior, on worship/liturgy, etc.

© The content of tradition consisted “materially” of the Scriptures, but “formally” of the Faith of the Catholic Church, its reading of the Scriptures in the Creed, etc; the mere text of Scripture alone was insufficient; heretics also quoted Scripture but they did not read that Scripture in the context of the Tradition or the orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church;

(D) The Catholic Church alone has received the apostolic deposit of truth, for in her the Holy Spirit of truth lives (John 14:16f; 16:13f); the Church alone is the sole inheritor of the true Christian teaching from God through Christ to the Apostles;

(E) This Tradition – the Church’s Tradition – is itself oral; and if there were no NT Scriptures it would have been sufficient for the Church to follow “the order of tradition” received from the apostles; in the minds of the early Christians it made no difference if the transmission was purely oral since there was an assured connection to the apostles through the Churches founded by the apostles to guarantee authenticity;

(F) Scripture was everything for the Fathers, and Tradition was everything also;

(G) What was the nature of the Church of the Fathers? It was one universal visible Church ruled by a hierarchy of bishops, presbyters/priests, deacons, etc in succession from the apostles (apostolic succession, again not “succession of doctrine” only);

(H) The entire activity of the Fathers demonstrates that they united three terms that were separated and set in opposition by the controversies of the 16th century – these three terms were Scripture, Tradition, and Church; it was always affirmed that Scripture is the rule and norm of faith only when conjoined to the Church and her Tradition;

(I) Hence, the Scriptures were never considered by the Fathers as formally “sufficient” or exclusive.

Phil P


#4

Also, as they are Baptists, ask them:

where is the sinner’s prayer in the Bible?

ask them:

where is the God Inspired table of contents?
Sure, he can point out when various Church fathers accepted the books, but they are only men! What authority do they have to accept of reject God’s Word, and to declare WHAT God’s Word is? If we must only used God’s Inspired Word, where in It does It list It’s contents?

lazerliek42.tripod.com/sola.htm

I address a lot of other problems there, too, like the fact that there are 23,000 different Protestant denominations in the world, and if the Holy Spirit really guides true believers to the right interpretation, why are there 23,000 different views?


#5

lazer << I address a lot of other problems there, too, like the fact that there are 23,000 different Protestant denominations in the world >>

Actually there’s 33000+ according to Barrett’s World Christian Encyclopedia (2001 edition) along with 242 “Roman Catholic denominations.” I clear this up here with help from Dave88. So you’re almost right. :smiley:

Phil P


#6

[quote=PhilVaz]lazer << I address a lot of other problems there, too, like the fact that there are 23,000 different Protestant denominations in the world >>

Actually there’s 33000+ according to Barrett’s World Christian Encyclopedia (2001 edition) along with 242 “Roman Catholic denominations.” I clear this up here with help from Dave88. So you’re almost right. :smiley:

Phil P
[/quote]

:stuck_out_tongue: I was going off the 1989 UN survey when I wrote it.


#7

Thanks For All Your Help In Answering These Questions :slight_smile:


#8

The Bible alone

is GOD INSPIRED tradition.

This is completely false, tell your friend that he should start with the truth if he wishes to convince people. This claim is itself also completly unscriptural. The Holy Scriptures do not anywhere claim that there is no other authority. As him to pray with you for guidance and then pray with him. Ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to guide you and he to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Yours in Christ.


#9

It’s amazing how many sola scriptura Christians claim that apostolic Tradition was crystallized in scripture when scripture itself says no such thing.


#10

[quote=Kay Cee]It’s amazing how many sola scriptura Christians claim that apostolic Tradition was crystallized in scripture when scripture itself says no such thing.
[/quote]

If apostolic Tradition is crystallized in Scripture, then why don’t they believe in Apostolic Succession?


#11

[quote=mercygate]If apostolic Tradition is crystallized in Scripture, then why don’t they believe in Apostolic Succession?
[/quote]

Beats me, but I’ve seen some claim that Apostolic authority ended with the death of the last apostle. If you believe the Church was founded on Peter (and some Protestants do believe this, since the text is so clear), but deny papal authority, you must find some way to deny that the current pope is the successor of Peter.


closed #12

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