Is the hymn Supper of the Lord heretical?


#1

In the chorus it says: “Precious body precious blood here in bread and wine…”

If I understand this correctly…it is consubstantiation We believe in transubstantiation. How is this song (among others) allowed in the hymnals?


#2

We also believe that hymms placed in the hymnal by bishops are not heretical when we don’t understand the reasons for their selection or the nuanced meanings behind their words. We prefer to trust our bishops rather than our own opinions, no?

Would you likewise have a problem with Holy Scripture when St. Paul writes about bread here? “Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.”

Or here? “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”

Or in Acts? "And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart; "


#3

There can be different types of “in”. “Consubstantial with” doesn’t fit in the one beat to make the rhythm of the hymn work. Sing it yourself, if you don’t believe me. It just doesn’t flow. We understand what “in” means in this case without being so nit-picky.


#4

This is absolutely true in those cases where the Bishop has a hand in the creation of the hymnals. Most of the parishes in the US use hymnals created by publishing houses, not Bishops. There are songs in the hymnals that are approved for Mass mixed in with hymns that are only appropriate for **other **worship settings mixed in with songs that don’t seem to match any Church teaching at all. :shrug:

We trust the Bishops but that doesn’t mean we have to trust the book publishers or to suspend our use of critical thinking just because a publisher has the word “Catholic” in its name.


#5

I’ve understood that line to mean “under the appearances of” bread and wine. I agree that there is not enough timing in the song to say all that, but we Catholics know what the church teaches about transubstantiation.


#6

Yes, I suppose the lyrics do imply consubstantiation, but in the real world most people aren’t armchair theologians trying to find heresy in their soup, so I wouldn’t worry about it.


#7

I wouldn’t have believed this is being sung in Catholic churches unless I saw videos of it with my own eyes and ears.

Yes, the lyrics are heretical.


#8

I don’t have a problem with soup but I find spaghetti-O’s to be very heretical.


#9

You’re overanalyzing it. There is nothing wrong in referring to the Eucharist as bread and wine.


#10

This is the problem with hymns that are not Scripturally based being used in the context of a liturgical worship service, particularly the Mass. It is nearly impossible to convey pure theology in poetic lyric.

As I continue to study hymnody of the Latin Church, it is increasingly apparent that there is such a thing as liturgical music, appropriate with respect to text for use during the Mass. In the Eastern Churches, we tend to be rather rigid on text (Scripturally based) and allow for some variance in melody and setting, based on particular tradition.


#11

Hmmm, ive heard this song sung quite a bit in church, in fact fairly orthodox churches have played this. I’ve never really thought of it being heretical. Guess it shows how we need to pay more attention at mass.

Also, hymn books have plenty of hymns that shouldn’t be sung in church. I was always kind of confused that catholic hymnals had luther’s “A mighty fortress is our God”, since it was so identified with the reformation, but i guess in that sense it must be okay since a lot of churches sing one or two songs written by John Wesley (the founder of the Methodists).


#12

Then I suppose Basil the Great, Bishop, Saint, and Doctor of the Church is a heretic. In more than one of his prayers in preparation for Holy Communion he refers to the body and blood of our Lord as “bread and wine.” In one prayer he writes, “Grant me to receive the **bread and wine **which are your body and blood until my last breath and, thereby, to receive fellowship with the Holy Spirit as a provision for the journey to eternal life, and as an acceptable defense at your dread judgment-seat.” In another prayer he states, “Let **the bread and wine **be for the healing of soul and body,for the enlightenment of my mind, and for the protection of my life.”


#13

If you have a concern about a hymm sung in your Mass then you ought to contact the priest who presided over the Mass, and get informed on why hymms are neither heretical nor inappropriate. None of us are your diocesan priests.


#14

Given the level of catechesis in the pews today, I think some hymnal language is imprudent but I wouldn't call this heretical. In a Catholic context this one shouldn't be problematic.

Don't let anyone tell you that all of the hymns in your hymnal deserve a nihil obstat, though. There are definitely lyrics out there that sound heretical, and probably are. Keep your guard up.


#15

If you’re ever concerned and feeling scrupulous about your soup (soupulous?) you can’t go wrong with chicken noodle, as it is very traditional, and even connects with our Jewish heritage as Christians!:wink:


#16

In my opinion, this syrupy, elevator-music-style song is blatently heretical. Bishops don’t write hymnals, and most publishers are private companies. This hymn by Laurence Rosania is found in Oregon Catholic Press hymnals. OCP is technically a non-profit arm of the Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon, but the archdiocese (at least the present administration) has given them little oversight. OCP is the main purveyor of “contemporary” music in American parishes today, and it is about time that they come under better scrutiny for what they pass off as Catholic hymnody.


#17

In the end, it’s only the opinion of the Church which really matters.


#18

Well, in that case, St. Thomas Aquinas is a heretic, too.

‘O Godhead hid, devoutly I adore Thee,
Who truly art within the forms before me’.


#19

Then you must also believe that the new Roman MIssal is heretical, as one of the prescribed Memorial Acclamations, recited or sung AFTER the Consecration, is “When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your Death, O Lord, until you come again.” The Church’s Eucharistic Prayer referring to “Bread” AFTER the Consecration?!?!?!

The hymn lyrics are poetry. Hymn lyrics shouldn’t teach bad theology, but it’s also possible to over-interpret them.


#20

Then, as someone else pointed out, St. Paul was heretical.

Clearly the words “bread and wine” can refer to the species/accidents/dimensions and don’t have to refer to substance, although in scholastic terminology things are named by their substances.

Holy Scripture does not speak the language of scholasticism. Why do you hold hymns to a “higher” standard than Scripture?

Edwin


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