Is the Mass Idolatry?


#1

I finally understand the Protestant objection to the adoration of the host on a metaphysical basis. And I can’t refute it.

  1. In transubstantiation the entire substance of the bread is converted into the entire substance of the body of Christ.

  2. But the accidents, the appearances of bread and wine remain.

  3. Now, the accidents have no subject, they no longer refer to anything in reality. Since the substance of bread is gone, they are mere appearances without a connection to anything. They have no subject!

  4. But if they have no subject, then they are Created parts of reality with NO relationship to Christ!

  5. Therefore, to adore the sensible elements of the Host is to adore that which is created and NOT connected to Christ, and therefore constitutes idolatry.

An analogy- suppose we went to the tomb of Christ while he was in it and adored the tomb itself for holding the body of God, offered incense to the tomb and proceeded about the tomb chanting and hailing the tomb and worshiping it. Is it idolatry? Yes, for the tomb is not God, it contains God.

Likewise, even if transubstantiation could be true, the sensible aspects that remain are not God, they merely contain Christ. Therefore how could they be adored? This is not the Hypostatic Union, he does not become bread for us, nor are the accidents made part of himself hypostatically, for this would alter the incarnation.

How then can the Eucharistic ACCIDENTS be adored rightly without falling into idolatry?

And before you say- “Well we adore this because it contains God!” THATS what the pagans said about their idols.

So how do we arise above a paganistic way of thinking of God “contained” in something without altering the incarnation? Are the Eucharistic accidents taken up into the Godhead? How and where is it taught? This would be like a Eucharistic Monophysitism…


#2

The pagans were wrong because they didn’t actually have God. And we adore God, not the accidents


#3

So in adoration before the Eucharist in the monstrance do you admit what you see is God?


#4

Yes. The eucharist is Christ


#5

Ok, so the accidents are God also.


#6

The eucharist is Christ


#7

Substantially, but what about what you see taste and touch? Is that God substantially?


#8

Doesn’t the Catholic Church teach that the Eucharist is Jesus? Correct me if I’m wrong. Maybe look at the difference between consubstantiation and transubstantiation.


#10

The appearance is of bread but it’s substantially Christ


#11

Yes it does, but only what it is “inwardly” and substantially, not the outward sensible part. I do not touch Christ when I touch the host. I touch the accidents, the appearance. But what then is the nature of the connection between Christ and the accidents?


#12

So do you worship the outward appearance of the Eucharist? Do you worship and adore the whiteness, the roundness, and all the external qualities that appear as bread? Do you adore them?


#13

Well, you touch Christ because Christ appeared in the form of bread and wine


#14

How can you touch Christ when the appearance is not the substance?


#15

I’ve never thought about the whiteness of the roundness of the bread, I just think about God. Besides, not all hosts are round or white


#16

Christ is in the form of bread


#17

But when you see the host, and you adore it, does your adoration include its external visible qualities?


#18

Are you saying because the Eucharist Jesus doesn’t look like Jesus Catholics can fall into idolatry?:slight_smile:


#19

The host doesn’t contain God (not a container) the hosts BECOMES GOD! By the Grace of God and the consecration by the ordained Priest (who had the imposition of hands by his Bishop). God allows this to be done. Nothing we do makes this possible, nothing the Priest does on his own makes this possible, ONLY by God’s grace is this able to happen. That (which was once) bread is NOW JESUS’ BODY. That (which was once) wine is now the BLOOD OF CHRIST! It’s only bread to our mere human imperfect eyes, it’s only wine to our mere imperfect human eyes. NO Mass is NOT idolatry. Mass is worship, praise, glory and adoration of our Lord and Savior.


#20

I never thought of it honestly. I just thought about Christ


#21

I am saying that the accidents are not the substance. If not, can they be adored, because they are NOT Jesus. If yes, how? They have no connection to anything.


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