Is the Roman Catholic Church and the body of Christ one and the same?

Pope Paul VI declared:

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

Yeah. Well. You’re full of questions this evening.

This is a good one and I’m sure you’ll get many posts.

For now, this is what I want to say:
At Wednesdays General Audience of Pope Francis in Rome he gave a nice homily regarding this door idea which is also at the end of Pope Paul VI’s declaration saying that through baptism, as through a door, men enter the church. (in your post).

Pope Francis said quite plainly, and anyone can confirm using the internet, I’m sure, that the CHURCH IS THE DOORMAN, but is NOT the building.

Yes. We could contemplate this for a bit. Is there a difference??
And it begs the question: What or Who IS the building??

Will be following along.

Fran

No. As I understand the expression, “This Church [established by Christ] … subsists in the Catholic Church,” it means that the Catholic Church is the truest and most complete continuation of the Church established by Christ, preserving the entire apostolic faith without error and retaining all the supernatural gifts that Christ wanted his Church to have, such as the office of bishop and apostolic succession thereof, the office of pope, and all seven sacraments. Other Churches may also be continuations of the Church established by Christ but they are defective continuations, defective in some aspect of faith and/or gifts. For instance, the Orthodox Churches are defective continuations of the Church established by Christ because they have failed to retain the gift of the office of pope.

I agree. But, of course, the orthodox say that WE strayed from the original church.
But, that’s normal, of course.

But, any comment on Pope Francis’ comments?

Am I the only one who heard it??

I must say that I’m so happy to hear that you believe other churches are a continuation too, if somewhat defective. We say that they don’t have the fullness of faith. Many on these threads state that they are lost since they are not in the true church. Always refreshing when I come across one that understands the position of the church. You know the EENS idea. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Outside the church there is no salvation. The poster is asking if the church and the body of christ is the same thing.

I’d say that the Church understood as the body of Christ is the same thing.
The church and the body of christ is not the same thing, although the** c**hurch is part of the body of christ in that He established it and it represents Him.

However, not all in the church (small c) are also members of the body of Christ.
All in the Church (capital C) are also in the body.

Good question!

My guess is that the Church is the visible structure of the Catholic Church, ie Magisterium, bishops, pope, clergy, laity. The body is the invisible structure of the Church, consisting of all those who are responding to the promptings of the HolySpirit, either indwelling, or eventually to be indwelling.

Peace

I wish you could read what the Pope said.

You’re absolutely right in what you say above.

But it doesn’t really answer the question.

if the church is the DoorMan leading one inside and he said it is NOT the building, then what IS the building?

Will check in tomorrow. I find this so interesting.

Fran

General Audience, Nov. 18, 2015:

The door is before us, not just the Holy Door, but another: the great door of the Mercy of God

In truth, we are well aware that we too are watchmen and servants of the Door of God, and what is the name of the door of God? Jesus! He lights up all of life’s doors for us, including those of our birth and of our death. He himself affirmed it: “I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture” (Jn 10:9).

the sheep are all called, they are chosen by the Good Shepherd. The gatekeeper — he too — obeys the Shepherd’s voice. Thus, we can well say that we must be like that gatekeeper. The Church is the gatekeeper of the house of the Lord, she is not the proprietor of the Lord’s house.

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/audiences/2015/documents/papa-francesco_20151118_udienza-generale.html

I’ll try to read it. But what i meant was that when the Pope referred to the church as doorman, he meant the visible structure of the Catholic Church. It is that church that is not the building.

That Church is more or less the framework that allows the “invisible church” to exist.

Think of a body without bones. How far would that get?

Wow, that just reminded me of a Ray Bradbury story, I believe in The illustrated Man". Very Creepy.

peace
steve

Gosh. I heard it in Italian as he was saying it. I have to find the whole speech somehow

So you’re saying that the INVISIBLE church is the bldg. The doorman is the catholic church down in Rome… He said “portiere” which means doorman - one who let’s others into the bldg.

BTW, I used to love Ray Bradbury in my younger years. Read all his stuff. Including The Illustrated Man. Don’t remember a lot though.

Fran

Thanks Vico.

Yes. It’s no use to insist on something if you’re not sure, and I haven’t been and have asked a few times for someone to please confirm what I heard.

So this is what I heard.

Il guardiano – anche lui – obbedisce alla voce del Pastore. Ecco, potremmo ben dire che noi dobbiamo essere come quel guardiano. La Chiesa è la portinaia della casa del Signore, non è la padrona della casa del Signore.

He does switch from guardian of the door to doorman or maybe doorkeeper.

So, even the doorkeeper must listen to the voice of the shepherd. We must be like that doorkeeper. The church is the doorman or doorkeeper of the house of the Lord, it is not the owner of the House of the Lord.

As you quote above. So the church is the doorman that must let people INTO the house, it is not the owner of the house. So, the Lord is the owner of the house.

This must all seem to be not important, but here it’s very important and I don’t know if the same is going on in the states. Many take it to mean that the church (small c) cannot be more important than the owner of the church, Jesus.

I have friends very upset over this because they believe the opposite. They make the church to be more important than Jesus.

Fran

What are you saying, that you can’t confirm this for yourself?

I think you might have heard a report on the general audience?

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/11/18/pope_francis_at_audience_door_to_gods_mercy_never_closed/1187671

I think his point about shutting ourselves in with our structures is just s important.

Would that be churchiolatry? Human beings do have a tendency to get attached to structures and habits. I think there are people today who would be very offended by Jesus, just as the Sanhedrin were.

We are the building not made wit hands. Jesus is the Door by which one enters the Church, made up of living stones.

Yes, of course. Jesus is the good shepherd. Jesus is the door. Jesus is the light. Jesus is the bread, and many other “is’s”.

And you correctly used the word church with a capital C. WE are the LIVING stones, and Jesus is the cornerstone of the foundation which has been built on Him.

On Him the solid rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand.

Fran

I heard the speech when he was giving it. Sometimes you read into it what you want to hear. So I would have liked to have it in writing or to be able to relisten to it. Vico posted the written transcript which i read in both English and Italian. I was ever so slightly off but not by a lot.

Thanks also for your link - you could have sent it days ago, but okay. I caught from your link that we must also let Him (Jesus) out because He is a prisoner of our structrues, selfishness, etc. Yes. This is very important.

I like to actually read or hear what a person says, not listen to the news about it since you never get the whole, or important, picture.

Churchiolatry would be a good name for what I’m witnessing. People who believe more in the church than in Jesus. So if the church makes a change their faith is shaken - because their faith is not in their savior but in the announcer of the savior.

Fran

I had no idea that people were upset by what the Holy Father said. It seem not to conflict, to me, with what he said in his 29 October 2014 General Audience:

In preceding catecheses we showed how the Church has a spiritual nature: it is the body of Christ, built up by the Holy Spirit. When we refer to the Church, however, the mind immediately turns to our communities, our parishes, our dioceses, to the structures where we usually gather and, obviously, to the more institutional components and the figures who administer, who govern her. This is the most visible reality of the Church. We must ask ourselves, then: are these two different things or the one single Church? And, if it is one single Church, how should we understand the relationship between the visible reality and the spiritual?

the Church is us all, us! All baptized persons are the Church, Jesus’ Church.

2. In order to comprehend the relationship, in the Church, the relation between her visible reality and the spiritual realm, there is no other way than to look to Christ, whose body is constituted by the Church and who generates her, in an act of infinite love.

Christ is the model for the Church, because the Church is his body. He is the model for all Christians, for us all. When one looks to Christ, one does not err.

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/audiences/2014/documents/papa-francesco_20141029_udienza-generale.html

The life of the Church is Christ…and we are members of One Body…The Church is the Bride of Christ and He seeks to purify her of all blemish…

You have to look at the context…here Francis is opening up the Year of Mercy…so his language fits this Holy Year.

Hi Vico,

Since this is the actual title of this thread, I guess I could get into this a bit.
Let’s start off with a question: If you had to choose between Jesus and the church (small c), which would you choose?

Then the answer comes back: You don’t have to choose, it’s one and the same thing.

Okay. So if it’s one and the same thing, why all this grief going on over here? I did say that I’m not sure if it’s happening also there - it does seem to me that even posters from the U.S. are expecting some kind of change. Maybe, for instance with the remarrieds and communion question. It does seem (SEEM) that it might be decided to go on an individual basis. Wouldn’t this change the actual dogma and also doctrine of the church? How do we reconcile this with being merciful and opening the door?

Alas, it’s too early to speak of this. But here there are real changes going on right now. So this colors all my comments on these threads because of the conclusion I’ve come to.

Many are still upset with the new Mass. The priest facing the people. Communion in the hand. The tabernacle being removed from the center of the altar. Confession only once a year. Fasting one hour before instead of the prior midnight. Some remarrieds receiving communion, but this would enter into judgmentalism so I try not to think about; it’s between them and God, as the Pope says.

Oh. Last Friday evening the new Monsignor (whom I don’t really know - knew the old one really well) at bible lesson said that Italians are to throw away their bibles that were printed prior to 2008 because they were translated from Latin instead of the original Greek. He said that we’re to stop doing the rosary at wakes and do a scripture reading instead. He said we give too much importance to saints and not enough to Jesus.

Now the above stuff is cultural and I can’t take up pages to explain each item. Especially about the saints - there’s a whole thing here with patron saints, etc. Let’s just say that these changes are really upsetting a lot of people.

Maybe because they’ve been engaging in what guanophore calls churchiology. I didn’t know that expression exists but it seems to fit the bill. So now, every time Pope Francis speaks and goes in the direction of sprirituality, some get very upset because there’s no understanding of what he’s talking about since all they did all their lives is follow what the church told them to do.

He’s saying that we’re to have some kind of personal relationship with the Lord. A friend came over on Friday afternoon specifically to talk about what this means. She doesn’t know what it means. She’s alarmed, as are others. I know this because I’ve been involved in the church and still am, though not as much - unfortuantely. But it does give me the opportunity to know what’s going on with people.

So yes. What if the church “let’s you down”? What to do? As I’ve said, I’ll have no problem because I know from whence my salvation cometh. If I have to decide, I decide for Christ.

You correctly use Church with a capital C, and, of course, you cannot separate Jesus from the Church - His body.

Maybe it’s just a matter of getting used to some new ideas. They’re actually talking of a schism over here. To which I ask - which will be the true church, the one who stays or the one who leaves?

I’m sorry I carried on so much. We seem to meet up a lot and maybe it’s good to make one’s comments be understood.

Fran

You mention that there are real changes going on now. Does that mean in peoples minds or is that development of doctrines? If doctrines, is it published?

Note the original post with Pope Paul VI quoted: “…through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.”

I very much like what you posted here:

In preceding catecheses we showed how the Church has a spiritual nature: it is the body of Christ, built up by the Holy Spirit. When we refer to the Church, however, the mind immediately turns to our communities, our parishes, our dioceses, to the structures where we usually gather and, obviously, to the more institutional components and the figures who administer, who govern her. This is the most visible reality of the Church. We must ask ourselves, then: are these two different things or the one single Church? And, if it is one single Church, how should we understand the relationship between the visible reality and the spiritual?

the Church is us all, us! All baptized persons are the Church, Jesus’ Church.

2. In order to comprehend the relationship, in the Church, the relation between her visible reality and the spiritual realm, there is no other way than to look to Christ, whose body is constituted by the Church and who generates her, in an act of infinite love.

Christ is the model for the Church, because the Church is his body. He is the model for all Christians, for us all. When one looks to Christ, one does not err.

It’s not in people’s minds. The Monsignor, and the Pope, seem to be speaking of an inner change which must take place. Of letting Jesus into the door of the heart. The pope specifically talked about Revelation, Jesus knocking on the door with no doorknob.

There is nothing written. Maybe it’s just Vatican II and it takes longer to get here. People here are very resistant to change.

Well, maybe the way you mean it, is IS in their minds. I’ve always understood these things all along so no problem for me.

I wouldn’t say it’s development of doctrine, but maybe this ongoing revelation we speak of. The only doctrine that might be changed is the remarried question but that hasn’t even been decided officially yet, and still many labor over this possible change.

Maybe the church here is trying to get closer to the spirituality of our faith - less away from works and legalism. I get myself into trouble using the word legalism, but how else to explain? When one is following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law.

Keep Holy the Sabbath. Does it mean ONLY go to church? So if I go to Mass i’m good, no matter what else I do that day. But if I miss Mass I’m going stright to hell because I commited a mortal sin. This is the difference to me. This does not mean I think we shouldn’t go to Mass. Jesus spoke on this a lot: Following the precepts of man (the pharisees) you have made null lthe word of God. There are pharisees even today. Holding on to the law as if that’s what’ll save them and not Jesus’ sacrifice, they won’t let people in, as the Pope says. Some will post the weirdest concerns. Mortal sin everywhere. Invalidating the gravity of mortal sin – Questions that should be asked of Jesus and not of us – for the answers are varied; I’ve posted pp’s from the CCC and have gotten replies that contradict what I understand it to mean! So, yes, some kind of spirituality has to become important. Precisely because we might understand things differently - and God will judge us by that understanding. I just think we should be careful not to put legalism in the way of God, as an obstacle.

I mean, Fra’ Lorenzo is inundated with persons wanting to speak to him about these “changes”. Maybe these conversations with him wouldn’t be necessary if we leaned more on Jesus and less on the church?? (small c).

Maybe I’m not making myself be understood properly.

Fran

If in doubt with a pope, consult the catechism.

The issue is not about changing doctrine, it is about pastoral administration in assisting and ministering to people who made the wrong choices in former marriages, are remarried outside the Church, and are seeking restored communion.

Very difficult. You also have to look at the times of the late '60’s through 90’s, that misled alot of people into bad relationships that were not centered in God.

I am addressing an issue that is outside my ball park and it belongs with the pope and bishops to address and work on the complexities…

The other issue is to not allow couples to anull easily either…their marriage has the Cross and may need more time to work out.

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