Who believes that the wrath of God towards the faithful is appeased in the Mass?
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “the wrath of God toward the faithful”—isn’t that a contradiction in terms? Why would God be wrathful toward the faithful?
Mass is the celebration of the Eucharist and the eternal Last Supper.
God’s wrath was appeased by Christ and Christ alone at Calvary. However, the consecration at the Mass is the same sacrifice, presented again, beyond time and space.
Article 1367 of the Catechism states that the sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are “one single sacrifice.” Furthermore, Article 1367 states that the sacrifice of the Eucharist is “truly propitiatory.” ‘Propitiation’ is the appeasement of the wrath of God.
The faithful are also sinners. That is why the Mass is a sacrifice. Given these considerations, is not the wrath of God towards the faithful appeased in the Mass?
Okay, thanks for clarifying.
In the sense that Mass is the eternal sacrifice (not repeated sacrifice) of Christ, I would agree with you. It makes a certain amount of liturgical sense, as we confess our sins at the beginning, hear Scripture, psalm, and Gospel, pray, and then receive the Lord. In the Mass, we relive the history of Man’s interaction with God.
Thank you for posting this; it’s a very interesting observation.
Oh! Its the Propitiation guy. I guess you made no headway in the other thread you opened on this subject so you are trying again under a variation on the theme!!
Everyone should simply go back to his other thread on this subject.
Yes, it’s the “propitiation guy!!” Actually, there are TWO other threads on propitiation. One of them is NOT mine. My thread has close to 800 viewings now. I would not call that “no headway.” I would say that the subject has considerable interest. What is YOUR answer to the question? A simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ followed by an explanation will do. Perhaps, you don’t like the question. If so, why?
Actually your thread has only 15 posts of which 8 were from you. That’s what I call no headway. Viewing is not an indication of anything. If there had been interest then the number of posts would be substantial (see threads where there are hundreds of posts).
Have it your way.
There are no more posts because there is nothing more to say. You either accept the Eucharist as a ‘propitiatory sacrifice,’ or you don’t. You either believe our Lord had in mind the appeasement of His wrath when He instituted the remembrance of His death in the upper room, or you don’t.
Please define “appeasement of His wrath”–what exactly are those words supposed to mean when applied to a God who is pure and perfect Love???
There is no way to adequately address your question without an adequate understanding of terms.
Post #4 provides the background to “appeasement of His wrath.” Where is the ambiguity?
“Eternal Father I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son our Lord Jesus Christ in atonement for my sins and those of the whole world……For the sake of His sorrowful passion have mercy on us and on the whole world…”
Yes, I think so.
[quote=bcoger]There are no more posts because there is nothing more to say.
If there was nothing more to say on this subject, then why did you start a new thread?
[quote=bcoger] You either accept the Eucharist as a ‘propitiatory sacrifice,’ or you don’t. You either believe our Lord had in mind the appeasement of His wrath when He instituted the remembrance of His death in the upper room, or you don’t.
Scott Hahn in his essay The Fourth Cup explains the Mass.
I believe that… the sacrifice of Christ… began in the upper room… And I would also suggest that the Passover meal by which Jesus initiated the new Covenant in his own blood did not end in the upper room, but at Calvary. It’s all of one piece.
…Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, “Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed, therefore” - what? - we don’t need to have any more sacrifice? Therefore we don’t need to have any more ritual, therefore all we have to do is have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and invite him into our hearts and everything else is taken care of?
No, he’s too knowledgeable about the Old Testament to say any of that. He says, “Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed; let us therefore celebrate the feast.” What feast? The whole Passover feast…
…Suppose that [Passover] night as head of my household and father, I sacrificed an unblemished lamb with no broken bones, and I sprinkled his blood on the door post, and then I said, "Family, we’re safe, let’s go to bed’, and we went to bed. I’d wake up in the morning to tragedy. My firstborn would be dead.
Why? You had to eat the lamb. It isn’t enough to kill him. That [killing] is the satisfaction for sin, but the ultimate goal… is to restore communion, to have fellowship with God restored. And that’s what’s signified by eating the lamb.
…It wasn’t enough to say, 'Well we don’t like lamb do we, kids? Why don’t we make lamb cookies? Little lamb wafers that symbolize the lamb? …No, you’d wake up and you’d be dead.
Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Once and for all on Calvary he’s been put to death, therefore - what? Therefore we’ve nothing to do. Just celebrate the sacrifice, which is over and done with - No, something’s missing. We need to eat the Lamb…
It’s an unbloody sacrifice, because we’re not killing Jesus again. This was something I never really understood as a Protestant anti-Catholic. I thought for sure that because you speak of sacrificing in the Mass, that therefore in some way you believe we’re killing Jesus again and again and again, as though one dying is not enough… No way! … He is resurrected. He is ascended. He is enthroned, and he rules as king of kings… read the rest…
[quote=bcoger]Post #4 provides the background to “appeasement of His wrath.” Where is the ambiguity?
[quote=bcoger]Furthermore, Article 1367 states that the sacrifice of the Eucharist is “truly propitiatory.” ‘Propitiation’ is the appeasement of the wrath of God.
The ambiguity resides in the notion that nothing is required from us when in fact God requires us to eat the Lamb. The atonement has been made. Jesus made the atonement for us. But both God and we have to accept his atonement. God has done that. Now it is up to us.
The ambiguity is that post #4 is not the least bit responsive to my straightforward question.
I’ve asked you for a definition for the term “appeasement of HIs wrath”–if you cannot provide such a definition, then your question is worthless, isn’t it?
BTW, it should be noted that the word “propitiation” as defined in Webster’s Unabridged does say for definition 1. “The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating an offended person…”
BUT, there is a simple and straightforward definition 2 as well:
“In Scripture, Christ, viewed as the atoning sacrifice for sin.”
It should be thus clear that the propitiation found in the Mass is Christ Himself, NOT the Mass itself.
An important distinction–propitiation is present in the Mass because Christ THE Propitiation is present.
Even so, I am still eager to have “appeasement of His wrath” defined…
I think the wrath of God is symbolic for his justice. We are not talking about an angry and resentful God who has been ticked off by us sinners, but a God of justice who’s eternal decrees have been broken. What we justly deserve is wrath (justice). Since we cannot make satisfaction for our fall, God himself became man and payed the price. Christ in becoming man perfectly satisfies the justice of God by dieing on the cross. In a way, God’s mercy can be said to fully answer his justice (wrath) but also shows his mercy (love) to be a more fundamental character of God (without contradicting his justice).
I hope this helps. Pope John Paul’s encyclical Dives in misericordia is a good place to get more information on the mercy of God.
What point are you making with your question?
[quote=Ani Ibi]If there was nothing more to say on this subject, then why did you start a new thread?
[quote=bcoger]What point are you making with your question?
The one I made. :shrug: