Is this sentence true?


#1

It is divine law that Catholics may not actively participate in the illicit worship of heretics, schismatics, and/or infidels.

If this sentence is true, does “illicit worship of heretics, schismatic and/or infidels” include Protestant services? If you know it is true, can you cite infallible sources in Catholic teaching where it says this?


#2

[quote=pianoplayingmom][Is it] divine law that Catholics may not actively participate in the illicit worship of heretics, schismatics, and/or infidels.
[/quote]

Since Vatican II, A Catholic is permitted to attend non-Catholic worship services (provided s/he fulfills his/her own Mass obligations) and may participate in any worship activities which are not contrary to the Catholic Faith. For example, s/he could sing hymns or participate in prayer, provided these activities were sufficiently neutral (not anti-Catholic).

A non-Catholic is NOT permitted to receive “Communion” or take an active participation in such rituals. A Catholic may attend, but not participate or receive in such rituals.

I would regard it as inadvisable for a Catholic to attend non-Catholic services unless s/he were sufficiently grounded in the Catholic Faith to know what portions of the non-Catholic service might be contrary to it. I think it would also be unwise to make this a regular practice; there is nothing which is spiritually valid that a non-Catholic church offers that cannot be found within the Church Herself.

Prior to Vatican II, such attendance or participation was not permitted. There was no theological reason, but rather avoiding the appearance that, by attending, the Catholic was somehow endorsing such forms of worship (or contributing to the common protestant misconception that all religions are somehow equally valid). Although the restriction has been lifted, these are still valid reasons why it would be prudent to keep non-Catholic worship to a minimum.


#3

The key phrasing here is “illicit worship”. Christians are certainly allowed to gather in the name of Jesus Christ whenever they wish. Since this is essentially all a Protestant service is, it is not illicit. However, what is illicit is anything which seeks to take the place of a legitimate Catholic sacrament. Therefore, Catholics are not allowed to receive communion bread at a Protestant service, or behave in any way that might suggest that a Protestant service is just as good as the Mass.


#4

It is divine law that Catholics may not actively participate in the illicit worship of heretics, schismatics, and/or infidels

Where does this quote come from?


#5

[quote=yinekka]It is divine law that Catholics may not actively participate in the illicit worship of heretics, schismatics, and/or infidels

Where does this quote come from?
[/quote]

A friend of mine who is trying to get me to stop playing the piano for Protestant services wrote it to me. He says I am in mortal sin and in danger of going to hell because they are heretics or schismatics and their worship service is illicit.


#6

[quote=pianoplayingmom]A friend of mine who is trying to get me to stop playing the piano for Protestant services wrote it to me. He says I am in mortal sin and in danger of going to hell because they are heretics or schismatics and their worship service is illicit.
[/quote]

There is another thread dealing with this. Ask an apologist or better yet, your pastor. I think your friend is full of triumphalistic bunk.


#7

It’s your job and it seems like it would be ok under the new guidelines. Exceptions would be if you are held out to be a “member” of the congregation or if the congregation requires that you sign a statement of faith in order to work there.


#8

[quote=kmktexas]It’s your job and it seems like it would be ok under the new guidelines. Exceptions would be if you are held out to be a “member” of the congregation or if the congregation requires that you sign a statement of faith in order to work there.
[/quote]

Neither has happened. I am always very clear that I am Catholic; it’s easy to see I am not part of the congregation. I do not receive their communion. I always fulfill my Sunday obligation. I play at 2 Catholic parishes besides the Protestant church. They actually have respected me as a Catholic in their midst.


#9

You seem to have an interesting situation.

Clearly, you are not currently expressly forbidden from merely being there, but assisting in the worship, well… you’ve got to be committed one way or the other.

In not trying to encourage you one way or the other, but so that you can see what a previous Holy Father has said on the matter, and why, here is what Pope Pius XI said about the matter in His Encyclical Mortalium Animos:

  1. This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ. Shall We suffer, what would indeed be iniquitous, the truth, and a truth divinely revealed, to be made a subject for compromise?

And in what manner, We ask, can men who follow contrary opinions, belong to one and the same Federation of the faithful? For example, those who affirm, and those who deny that sacred Tradition is a true fount of divine Revelation;…those who adore Christ really present in the Most Holy Eucharist through that marvelous conversion of the bread and wine, which is called transubstantiation, and those who affirm that Christ is present only by faith or by the signification and virtue of the Sacrament; those who in the Eucharist recognize the nature both of a sacrament and of a sacrifice, and those who say that it is nothing more than the memorial or commemoration of the Lord’s Supper; … How so great a variety of opinions can make the way clear to effect the unity of the Church We know not; that unity can only arise from one teaching authority, one law of belief and one faith of Christians. But We do know that from this it is an easy step to the neglect of religion or indifferentism and to modernism, as they call it.

  1. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it.

#10

[quote=JKirkLVNV]There is another thread dealing with this. Ask an apologist or better yet, your pastor. I think your friend is full of triumphalistic bunk.
[/quote]

Yes, I started the thread. I asked an apologist and she gave a very thoughtful answer. I was able to answer her questions to satisfy my question in the affirmative. I doubt telling my friend that he is full of triumphalistic bunk would get me very far. :nope: My pastor is so far away from the Catholic Church teachings, from what I can tell, I could never trust him to be correct. (I DID ask 4 priest friends and several confessors. My friend said they are all heretics since they said I am not sinning.) I think this question is just another way for my friend to attack the issue from a different angle.


#11

[quote=Reformed Rob]You seem to have an interesting situation.

Clearly, you are not currently expressly forbidden from merely being there, but assisting in the worship, well… you’ve got to be committed one way or the other.

In not trying to encourage you one way or the other, but so that you can see what a previous Holy Father has said on the matter, and why, here is what Pope Pius XI said about the matter in His Encyclical Mortalium Animos:

It seems to be coming clearer that I am going to have to quit playing for the Protestant services. I had no idea when this argument began a couple months ago that I was doing anything wrong. I’ve played for them for 9 years.

[/quote]


#12

[quote=pianoplayingmom]It is divine law that Catholics may not actively participate in the illicit worship of heretics, schismatics, and/or infidels.

If this sentence is true, does “illicit worship of heretics, schismatic and/or infidels” include Protestant services? If you know it is true, can you cite infallible sources in Catholic teaching where it says this?
[/quote]

Do as St. Paul tell us, and let your conscience judge. If you are true to the Catholic faith as you say you are, but you feel you are only helping fellow Christians, then their is no sin.

But if your inner conscience convicts you, then participate no longer. But this does not seem to be your problem.


#13

[quote=yinekka]It is divine law that Catholics may not actively participate in the illicit worship of heretics, schismatics, and/or infidels

Where does this quote come from?
[/quote]

Um… I don’t worship heretics, schismatics, and/or infidels at all – licitly or illicitly.


#14

[quote=yinekka]It is divine law that Catholics may not actively participate in the illicit worship of heretics, schismatics, and/or infidels

Where does this quote come from?
[/quote]

Um… I don’t worship heretics, schismatics, and/or infidels at all – licitly or illicitly.

:stuck_out_tongue: :rolleyes:

Sorry… I just got home from work… I write for a living. It just hit me how frequently word sequence is juxtaposed. No worries. I’ve been editing my own writing, which is a dangerous thing to do.

:o

webster.commnet.edu/grammar/quotes/quotes_frames.htm

I think the only person a writer has an obligation to is himself. If what I write doesn’t fulfill something in me, if I don’t honestly feel it’s the best I can do, then I’m miserable.
__ Truman Capote

Words fascinate me. They always have. For me, browsing in a dictionary is like being turned loose in a bank.
__ Eddie Cantor

I was once being interviewed by Barbara Walters in three segments, all at once, though they were to be run on three separate days. In between two of the segments, she asked me how many books I had written, and I told her. She said, “Don’t you ever want to do anything but write?”
“No,” I said.
"Don’t you want to go hunting? Fishing? Dancing? Hiking?"
And I said, "No! No! No! and No!"
She said, "But what would you do if the doctor gave you only six months to live?"
I said, “Type faster.”
__ Isaac Asimov
from Asimov Laughs Again


#15

[quote=pianoplayingmom]It seems to be coming clearer that I am going to have to quit playing for the Protestant services…
[/quote]

If you are being paid fair-market wages for your musical services then I don’t believe that you have any OBLIGATION to quit. A Catholic painter may paint a protestant sanctuary, and a Catholic carpenter may build protestant pews.

If you were donating your services - that would be a different matter.

However, personally speaking, I would strongly prefer to not offer my musical talents (if I had any) to a protestant church. I would only do so if I had no other choice to provide for the basic needs of my family.


#16

:

It seems to be coming clearer that I am going to have to quit playing for the Protestant services. I had no idea when this argument began a couple months ago that I was doing anything wrong. I’ve played for them for 9 years.

In looking at those documents from earlier Popes, keep in mind that this is an issue that needs to be defined first as either an issue of discipline or of faith & morals. If it is an issue of discipline, then the most recent teaching is the one that carries the most weight. If you can find an orthodox priest who can advise you, that would be your ideal option.
[/quote]


#17

[quote=kmktexas]In looking at those documents from earlier Popes, keep in mind that this is an issue that needs to be defined first as either an issue of discipline or of faith & morals. If it is an issue of discipline, then the most recent teaching is the one that carries the most weight. If you can find an orthodox priest who can advise you, that would be your ideal option.
[/quote]

This is exactly right. The 1928 disciplinary rules of Pope Pius XI are no longer in force. Following Vatican II, there has been a dramatic change from the prior “us versus them” mentality to a desire for ecumenism and Christian unity. It seems like pianoplayingmom’s friend is having a hard time adjusting to this aggiornamento, and is now in open defiance of Church authority on this matter.

The current rules can be found in the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity’s Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism. For example:

  1. In liturgical celebrations taking place in other Churches and ecclesial Communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.

As you’ve clearly been invited by your hosts, I find it hard to imagine why playing the piano would be forbidden when reading and preaching are allowed.


#18

I think the "Apostolic See has NEVER allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics presents a valid point as. The false worship with heretics in Conventicles of heresy has never been permitted. As such (without of course, the important reasons of: a grave reason and the lack of an occaision of scandal must be present) furthermore, the worshipping with heretics would be akin, to those early Saints who, for refusing to give even a single drop of incense unto the False heathen Gods; or those Catholic persecuted by the Protestant Heretics who would execute Catholic priests and seek to rip all Catholics away from the One true Holy Catholic Religion: with such a goal still explicitly or implicitly expounded, it is something to think that all Catholics should avoid all Heathen, heretical, schismatical, and non-Catholic Sects. Additionally, the fact that here, in Mortalium Animos promotes REAL ecumenism via the promoting of the various adherents’ to the Protestant Sectaries to return to the ONE True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church!

The teaching of “Mortalium Animos” is the Church’s position on Ecumenism, and attending the assemblies of the various Protestant heretical sectaries; False Irenicism and dialogue via participation in false worship is not to be encouraged or lauded. The material presence of a Catholic in non-Catholic Christian Sect is therefore wisely prescribed to be done only with a grave or very serious reason; and then without the participation of the Catholic in said worship; as it is almost always injurious to the Catholic Faith with its heretical and false doctrine.


#19

Anyone familiar with papal proclamations and instructions outside of the “deposit of Faith” can easily determine that the particular situation and teaching by one Pope is often changed or overturned by another. One example is certainly the recent change from the rules and manner of celebrating the Mass as laid down by the Pope after the Council of Trent to that of the Missal of 1963 and finally the development of the O.F. Even those parts of a papal encyclical that lie outside that “deposit” are often changed or forgotten about as the Church moves on in time.

Another example might be some of the devotional practices so prevalent before Vatican II that are just recently seeing some resurgence. Many of them were not commonly practiced if at all by American Catholics before the 19th century, but were more recently introduced by immigrant priests from the European Church.


#20

Have a look at this,it’s very thorough, but it’s also well set out:

[LIST]
*]vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/general-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930325_directory_en.html
[/LIST]


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