Is this the place to ask about the Great Schism?


#1

Someone tried to explain it to me, the differences with Orthodox and Catholic, and I asked was it over the understanding of who was the successor of Peter (since I read they differ on this) but another said it was over objections about what a pope declared.

I think there is a huge difference here. Can someone tell me if it was over the successor of Peter? Someone here said its Peters brother who was the successor of Peter in the role of rock.

So, if that is true- then Catholic and Orthodox are merely just like Sunni and Shiite?

I would say this pretty much rules both out.


#2

Both Catholic and Orthodox have valid Apostolic Succession (valid Bishops and Priests), and valid sacraments.

The Schism occurred basically over a disagreement on the role of the Pope. Both view the Pope as the successor to Peter. The difference is that catholics believe this gives the Pope special authority as head of the Bishops. The Orthodox believe the Bishop of Rome is more of as “first among equals”, lacking power to direct other Bishops. They feel only a Council has the able to make doctrine and direct other Bishops.

There are also disagreements on the interpretation of some doctrines.

They are clearly NOT like Sunni and Shiite b/c both Churches descend directly from Christ and the Apostles.

God Bless


#3

When I said, like sunni and shiite, I meant in their dispute over succession.

Not, that christians follow mohhamed.

So, if they can disagree over successors for so long, but disagree suddenly over another issue, it sounds like they both struck out and could not be a True Church right there.


#4

No. They don’t differ on any theology or doctrine, they just differ in the interpretation. I would say they are both part of the True Church; the two lungs of the Church as Benedict XVI has described it. Eastern Catholics largely share the Orthodox interpretations of the disputed doctrines, but they don’t reject the Latin interpretation. They are in full communion with Rome, so the theology and dogma/doctrine need not be a barrier.

They don’t disagree over successors, they disagree over the authority granted the successor of Peter. They recognize that the Bishop of Rome is that successor, they just don’t grant that he has all the powers we Catholics believe he has.

God Bless


#5

Okay. Are you the same bilop who said something in another thread, where I could not understand what you said? About true christians?


#6

No. I am partcipating in that thread where “Starwynd” mentioned “proper Christians”.

I also have no idea what he means.

God Bless


#7

You’re confounding what are, essentially, 5 different groups into two.
Alexandria
The Coptics, well post schism, started defining themselves as being in union with the successor of Peter, but that succession being traced through the Patriarch (Pope) of Alexandria. Nothing I’ve seen indicates that as part of their schism, only an ex post facto justification for the authoritarianism present in that patriarchate, and why Alexandria instead of the EO.

Note also, Rome is almost as authoritarian as Alexandria, but not quite, in its ecclesiology.

Constantinople, Antioch and Moscow
The Eastern Orthodox Communion, however, does not, at present, define their union by any patriarch, but only as part of the whole.

They define themselves by their inter-acceptance and by their tradition. They also use an alternate understanding of the meaning of the renaming of Peter, one which make Peter not the cornerstone of the church, but Peter’s profession of the church the cornerstone. (In other words, they don’t claim union with Peter, they claim to hold the Faith of Peter.)

Syriac
The syriac churches hold association with Peter VERY high in importance, theologically. The Maronite, Chaldean, Syro-Malabar are in union; the ACE have a limited communion agreement with the Chaldeans, and there is one in communion with the Pope of Alexandria, too.

Armenian
I don’t know enough about these guys to say much more than 2 major churches, one in full union, one in limited communion.

Catholic
By definition, Catholics are in union with the Pope of Rome, and are composed of Westerns, Syriacs, Byzantines, Antiochenes, Alexandrians, and Armenians, united to the pope.


#8

Okay, this gives me a map of sorts to look at. (I am a visual learner) so, it appears that there is many subtle but important differences that one would say may or may not be theological(hope that is the right term) but more jurisdictional (matters of who is in charge?) than anything else, although I am convinced its a lot more complicated than meets the eye, as usually things are.

Thank you for the help everyone.


#9

If you had preceded the above statement with “It is my opinion that…”, then there would not be a problem with what you posted. As it stands, it is false.

John


#10

The Vatican claims that the special authority of the bishop of Rome is by divine mandate. The Orthodox maintain that it is a tradition of the Church.


#11

So neither the Yankees nor the Confederates are really Americans?:stuck_out_tongue:


#12

Thats funny, but in that case they were both adversaries, fighting against each other under one roof.

I get the impression that the catholics and orthodox prior to any break were not adversaries but had different ideas. I would guess they never have been adversaries but, both were unable to reach agreement on some things. Which, I hope everything was tried to not break. Yesterday after spending hours and hours here, I asked a poster why all such division in christian beliefs? If these 2 Churches, are the oldest, they are guilty of setting the tone for this kind of confusion that spread to all the christian world. It seems that way anyway.


#13

Actually the St. Pope St. Gregory and others defined Alexadria as Petrine, as St. Mark, his disciple, founded it. The title Pope was conferred on the Patriarch there, long before Rome took it.

Also there’s a Pope of Alexandria in full communion with Constantinople etc. and the other in limited, and growing, communion.

Constantinople, Antioch and Moscow
The Eastern Orthodox Communion, however, does not, at present, define their union by any patriarch, but only as part of the whole.

They define themselves by their inter-acceptance and by their tradition. They also use an alternate understanding of the meaning of the renaming of Peter, one which make Peter not the cornerstone of the church, but Peter’s profession of the church the cornerstone. (In other words, they don’t claim union with Peter, they claim to hold the Faith of Peter.)

Actually it would be more accurate to say that the successors of St. Peter, to be in communion with him and us, must have his faith.

Syriac
The syriac churches hold association with Peter VERY high in importance, theologically. The Maronite, Chaldean, Syro-Malabar are in union; the ACE have a limited communion agreement with the Chaldeans, and there is one in communion with the Pope of Alexandria, too.

And one in limited, and growing, communion with Constantinople etc., and another that takes a blind eye to communion with Constantinople.

Armenian
I don’t know enough about these guys to say much more than 2 major churches, one in full union, one in limited communion.

And limited, and growing, intercommunion with Constantinople etc.

Catholic
By definition, Catholics are in union with the Pope of Rome, and are composed of Westerns, Syriacs, Byzantines, Antiochenes, Alexandrians, and Armenians, united to the pope.

That’s the Vatican’s definition, not that of the Fathers.

The first attestation of Catholic is in the letter of the Patriarch and Successor of Peter at Antioch, St. Ignatius, writing to a Church later under Constantinople:
Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8

No mention of a need of a supreme pontiff for communion.


#14

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