IS TRADITION POSSIBLE apart from the Holy Spirit?


#1

What difference does it make
whether or not The Gifts & Fruits of the Holy Spirit are functional
in a Catholic wanting to
get it right with God,
to help renew the Church,
to carry out all that Jesus commanded us,
to become useful servants in His kingdom,
To love one another with the same love He has for us,
to live an Abundant Life
on purpose…

I am wondering what other Roman Catholics see…

gusano


#2

Without the Holy Spirit, a Catholic wouldn’t see the need to get right with God in the first place.


#3

[quote=Fidei Defensor]Without the Holy Spirit, a Catholic wouldn’t see the need to get right with God in the first place.
[/quote]

I agree with you Fidei Defensor,
I wonder if you are the only catholic (here) who sees.

…supposing we are getting it right with God,
Then what ?

gusano


#4

Maybe I’m missing something, but it almost seems like there’s an attempt to divorce the Holy Spirit from the Trinity, here. Why wouldn’t you want the gifts?


#5

Gusano is a Roman Catholic Charismatic (I checked his profile). He’s obviously not trying to say that the Holy Spirit isn’t important, then (Caro’s love the Holy Spirit, which is fair enough).

So why don’t you just tell us then Gusano? I don’t know, never really imagined the Church without the Holy Spirit. Basically the Holy Spirit was the one who gave the disciples the courage and the ability to start the Church and make so many converts in one day. These days the Spirit still works in similar ways, helping us to implement God’s Will. Did I get it right? (-:


#6

[quote=StCsDavid]Maybe I’m missing something, but it almost seems like there’s an attempt to divorce the Holy Spirit from the Trinity, here. Why wouldn’t you want the gifts?
[/quote]

*Hi S.C.D,
It is not possible to divorce the Holy Spirit frim the Trinity,
But it is possible to divorce the Holy Spirit from members of The Church.
for instance;
I am told by some Catholoc brothers, as well as Jehova’s witnesses, Evanjelicals, and countless others,
including ex-catholics, that the Gifts of the Spirit are no longer offered by God since the Church is already “established”

is that the way you see it ?

for the sake of Truth

gusano*


#7

The Holy Spirit is the SOUL of the Church, the soul of the Mystical Body of Christ:

In order that we might be unceasingly renewed in Him, He has shared with us His Spirit who, existing as one and the same being in the Head and in the members, gives life to, unifies and moves through the whole body. This He does in such a way that His work could be compared by the holy Fathers with the function which the principle of life, that is, the soul, fulfills in the human body.

That is from section 8 of Lumen Gentium, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (1964).


#8

[quote=gusano]*Hi S.C.D,
It is not possible to divorce the Holy Spirit frim the Trinity,
But it is possible to divorce the Holy Spirit from members of The Church.
for instance;
I am told by some Catholoc brothers, as well as Jehova’s witnesses, Evanjelicals, and countless others,
including ex-catholics, that the Gifts of the Spirit are no longer offered by God since the Church is already “established”

is that the way you see it ?

for the sake of Truth

gusano*
[/quote]

That’s a new one on me. I’ve never heard of parsing the Trinity like that. As far as I know the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still imparted upon those who receive the sacrament of confirmation. What’s your source other than hearsay?


#9

I have read that the Holy Spirit is the creation of the perfect love between the Father and the Son. God is Love. So They are not separate, They are One in Being, yet three separate Persons.

Think of the deciples in the upper room before the assent of the Holy Spirit, they were afraid and alone. Is that why you ask this question? You have to be open to the Holy Spirit, as He is gentle and waits for you to invite Him in. If you understood, you would not ask this question.

I will pray for you that the Holy Spirit enlightens you to the great importance of His presence. I am saying this with humility, please accept it as such. :gopray2:


#10

CCC **1830 **The moral life of Christians is sustained by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are permanent dispositions which make man docile in following the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

I’m pretty sure that this means that the Holy Spirit still bestows gifts upon us.

Look will you just tell us what you’re trying to get at here? I’d like to learn more 'bout the Holy Spirit if you’ve got something to say. Why do Charismatics feel like they are an exclusive club? Look, you guys are endorsed by the church, we believe (or at least I believe) that all your healing by laying on of hands and speaking in tongues is real, its genuine and its the Holy Spirit working through you, even though I have never spoken in tongues myself. Are you happy now?


#11

[quote=Flopfoot]Gusano is a Roman Catholic Charismatic (I checked his profile). He’s obviously not trying to say that the Holy Spirit isn’t important, then (Caro’s love the Holy Spirit, which is fair enough).

So why don’t you just tell us then Gusano? I don’t know, never really imagined the Church without the Holy Spirit. Basically the Holy Spirit was the one who gave the disciples the courage and the ability to start the Church and make so many converts in one day. These days the Spirit still works in similar ways, helping us to implement God’s Will. Did I get it right? (-:
[/quote]

  • Hi Flopfoot
    I like your name .
    In 7th grade English I was required to give a presentation in front of class.
    As I walked to the front (the sole of my left shoe had broken loose)
    so I "Flopped " as I walked !
    I think my embarrassment effected my grade. :smiley:
    (no reflection on you, …only an experience.)

Let me re-ask the question;
"Does the Holy Spirit work (possible) apart from TRADITION ?

Most Catholics and Charismatics say “YES… He leads us deeper into Tradition.” …however,
reformers mostly say "The Holy Spirit doesn’t need nor desire traditions …he gives us the bible instead"
or words to that effect.
I personally Love, in the Catholic Church, The Traditions which The Holy Spirit has opened up to me.

P.S. …I think you got it right.
It is me I am worried about.

gusano*


#12

[quote=StCsDavid]That’s a new one on me. I’ve never heard of parsing the Trinity like that. As far as I know the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still imparted upon those who receive the sacrament of confirmation. What’s your source other than hearsay?
[/quote]

  • well… for instance, 1 Corinthians 12: 4-11
    **4. "There are different Gifts but the same Spirit; …
  1. To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good…;
    Wisdom,
    Knowledge,
    Faith,
    Healing,
    Miraculous powers,
    Prophesy,
    Discernment of spirits,
    Tongues,
    Interpretation of Tongues…**

I understand there are 28 Gifts listed in the New testament.

I also believe The Holy Spirit is imparted in Confirmation,
I believe these gifts are Available (as The Spirit wills…)
are any of these fonctioning in your life, in your Parish ?

So,then…
Is it that we are holding back ?
Did The Spirit really stop distributing Gifts, as some say ?
or is He (The Spirit) just waiting for us to come to Him and ask?

or what is it ?

If I knew the answers I would be telling them.

gusano*


#13

Well I don’t really see the gifts at work in my home parish so much… but in parishes where there are charismatic groups and charismatic mass I see them at work… I’ve seen people speaking in tongues, prophesying, and heard stories of great healing miracles by the laying on of hands.

Like I said, I can’t speak in tongues… even though I’ve been baptised in the Spirit twice. Maybe it’s just that the Holy Spirit chooses not to work through me, or maybe it’s that I don’t open myself to Him enough for Him to be able to work through me.

However, I guess one thing to consider is that not all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are that miraculous-looking. When someone has courage, how do we know whether it was just their own courage from within themselves or whether they were braver than usual because of the Holy Spirit? So yea, sometimes it is hard to tell when the Spirit is at work.

As for tradition… the Holy Spirit didn’t stop trying to reveal the truth once the bible was written. He helps people to understand the bible today. But he also works strongly with the development and understanding of Tradition. Check out CCC 74 - 100. Here are some examples links made between the Spirit and Tradition.

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

  • *orally *“by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33 - in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34

. . . continued in apostolic succession

**77 **"In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

**78 **This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

**85 **"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

**86 **"Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48


#14
  • Hi Flopfoot,
    Thanks for the CCC posts on Tradition.
    It is good to chat with someone where Catholic Tradition is not Slammed, mocked, and ridiculed and explained away !
    But instead is appreciated.
    Double Thanks.

As for the Gifts of The Spirit…
Have you privately gone to The Father (in the context of Luke 11: 13 ? )
There are only (2) reasons (that I am aware of) why Jesus would want to Give the Holy Spirit to sinners like me.
(1) So that The Spirit would lead us into ALL THE TRUTH.
(2) So that we would follow the Promptings of The Holy Spirit and there-by co-operate in Building His Church
according to His Plan …and abandon our own.

In order to serve God loyally, we need all the Gifts we can get and use for His purpose.
Especially a GOOD PRAYER LANGUAGE.
And The Gift of Discernment of spirits…
which help us maintain an open empty heart ready for His Prompting…
In other words; “He must increase and I must decrease.”

Since it is Christ’s Church, isn’t it

Don’t be too surprised if you awaken from sleep …Speaking in Tongues to God …at full power !

:smiley:

gusano*


#15

I would say no, apart from the Holy Spirit Tradition is not possible. I think Tradition is one of the ways the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to us, and He works in each of us according to our own personality. On one of my Father Corapi tapes he says that God made us each unique, and “your sanctification is custom-made.” So maybe this is why one person receives the gift (for example) of tongues with ease, while somebody like me … well, i’ll say it this way: i haven’t received that gift yet.

I talk with my sister on the phone a lot (she lives in another state) and sometimes we pray together. She will sometimes pray softly in tongues while i am stating my prayer requests. i am fine with that and, while i wish i also had that form of prayer expression with God … i think deep down it is not a priority for me. What works for me is sticking to a routine of certain traditional prayers like the rosary every day. I see results from that - when i say my prayers first thing in the morning the whole day falls into place. When i don’t … well, things are more of a struggle. I heard somebody use the expression that we should always “stay prayed up” … not worry too much about how we do it, just make sure we do do it. :stuck_out_tongue:

So by praying the rosary i am leaning on tradition, right? I can’t help but believe the Holy Spirit is active there. I don’t have the personal encouragement that i would guess tongues gives one, but i find great comfort in the faith that saying the traditional prayer of the rosary with a sincere intention is pretty much guaranteed to do some good in some way. Plus there are various ways to pray the rosary to keep it interesting - you can use the scriptural rosary, or pray along with the rosary on EWTN radio, …

Anyway, the older i get the more thankful i am to be a Catholic! There are just so many safety nets for us, to prevent us from going astray. Sometimes I guess it is still hard to know exactly what God wants of us, but we have more guideposts and boundaries than any other religion, and at the same time nothing legitimate is off limits to us.


#16

Gusano,

One point I think needs to be made–the Holy Spirit is not the same as the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit (speaking in tongues, etc.). I believe that these gifts do continue today. But those who think otherwise are not saying that the Holy Spirit is unnecessary or unimportant. St. Paul makes it clear that charity and sound teaching are far more important than speaking with tongues or even miraculous healings, etc. Faith, hope, and love are the work of the Holy Spirit. Wherever they exist, there is the Holy Spirit. The “gifts” are the icing on the cake. Christians can disagree about the present relevance of the gift of tongues while still agreeing on the centrality of the Holy Spirit in the Christian life.

Edwin


#17

Yeah, that I know of, speaking in tongues is not a gift of the Spirit in the proper sense, or am I wrong?

But no matter what occurs, we should not be led into the idea of “new revelation” for the new convenant and the wholeness of truth has been revealed in Jesus Christ, and in Tradition through His Spirit present in the Church.

To categorize one from the other is useless. You see, it is all part of the same plan, and thus, one does not supercede or separate one from the other.

Check out the Church’s teaching on spirit and body (CCC 325-370, more or less). They are different but a unity, and thus there is no antagonism between the two. And the same is consitent through the theology of the Spirit: the Spirit of God, which guides the Church, is continuously revealed. No revelation nor presence of the Spirit is apart from His Church, and none of it is “new” because it has already been present as such.

I hope this makes sense,
God bless,
Aaron Magnan


#18

[quote=urban-hermit]I would say no, apart from the Holy Spirit Tradition is not possible. I think Tradition is one of the ways the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to us, and He works in each of us according to our own personality. On one of my Father Corapi tapes he says that God made us each unique, and “your sanctification is custom-made.” So maybe this is why one person receives the gift (for example) of tongues with ease, while somebody like me … well, i’ll say it this way: i haven’t received that gift yet.
[/quote]

*For me to receive the Gift of tongues, God had to “sneak it up” on me… I wanted to Receive The Baptism in The Holy Spirit
as promised in Acts 1: 5,8, but I wanted nothing to do with Tongues, even if it was a gift from God.
When I finally gave up all my resistance…The Power came !
and I have been Praying in tongues since .
I also was given the Gift of the Rosary and I Love them both. *

So by praying the rosary i am leaning on tradition, right? I can’t help but believe the Holy Spirit is active there.
** I don’t have the personal encouragement that i would guess tongues gives one, **
but i find great comfort in the faith that saying the traditional prayer of the rosary with a sincere intention is pretty much guaranteed to do some good in some way.

*I agree.
I love to pray the rosary during high traffic, as I meditate on the mysteries…NOTHING bothers me !
The Peace of Christ fills me and I beloeve it even oozes out onto the pavement !
Where Prayer language in foreigh Tongues is advantageous is during Worship,
or in emergencies. *

Anyway, the older i get the more thankful i am to be a Catholic! There are just so many safety nets for us, to prevent us from going astray. Sometimes I guess it is still hard to know exactly what God wants of us, but we have more guideposts and boundaries than any other religion, and at the same time nothing legitimate is off limits to us.

*I whole-heartedly agree.
And I love your summary

thanks

How do you dream of serving The Lord ?

gusano*


#19

[quote=Contarini]Gusano,

One point I think needs to be made–the Holy Spirit is not the same as the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit (speaking in tongues, etc.).

I believe that these gifts do continue today. But those who think otherwise are not saying that the Holy Spirit is unnecessary or unimportant. St. Paul makes it clear that charity and sound teaching are far more important than speaking with tongues or even miraculous healings, etc. Faith, hope, and love are the work of the Holy Spirit. Wherever they exist, there is the Holy Spirit. The “gifts” are the icing on the cake. Christians can disagree about the present relevance of the gift of tongues while still agreeing on the centrality of the Holy Spirit in the Christian life.

Edwin
[/quote]

*Hi Edwin, thanks for your post.
If I understand you correctly,
(1) Jesus Sends The Holy Spirit down upon us. (in us)
(2) The Holy Spirit Distributes gifts to us as He wills.
(3) The Holy Spirit is much greater than the gifts.
(4) The gifts help us to grow and become useful. ?

Thanks

gusano*


#20

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.