Is Tridentine Mass Episcopal or Roman Catholic?


#1

I just returned from attending beautiful Traditional Latin Mass, but I’m not sure whether it was an Episcopal or a Roman Catholic service. Today’s Thursday evening 6:00 PM service was listed as the Vigil of St. Lawrence (Comm. St. Romanus) Mass. The priest wore a funny looking black hat on the way in and then took it off. He put the hat back on just before he left the alter. Here is the link for the church:

stmargmaryoak.org/

Your help identifying whether it was Episcopal or Roman Catholic will be greatly appreciated, because I’m not sure what denomination?

Anyway, the church pictures at the Internet site look washed out compared to being there. The carpeting is bright Red, there is indirect lighting behind the alter, there were colorful statues, and the sun on the stained glass windows during the 6:00 PM Mass was a sight to be hold. If there are any questions, I will be glad to answer them.

As a Protestant I knelt up at the alter and put my hands under the table cloth like the others. When the priest came by with the wafers I crossed my arms across my chest, and he blessed me in Latin.

Richard


#2

It’s very clear from their web-site that this church is Roman Catholic, being served by Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest.

Where did you get the idea that they were Episcopalians?


#3

It is definitely a Roman Catholic Church. The “funny looking hat” was a biretta.


#4

Okay, I’m not used to seeing a biretta hat. On the front page of the church bulletin it says, “Father Stanislaw Zak Pastor, Rev. Michael Wiener, Episcopal Delegate for the Latin Rite of 1962 Indult in the Diocese of Oakland and Larysz Rutkowska, Administrative Assistant” The biretta hat and Episcopal minister listed had me wondering what church I was in?

Anyway, like I said in my first post, it was a beautiful church service. The church wasn’t crowded, but considering that it was Thursday evening, there were a lot more people than I had expected. More worshiper than the church expected too, because we ran out of 1962 Missals. The worshipers were extremely silent, and there were no children or families. Everyone seemed to be alone. It was apparent that everyone present was devout, except for me of course, with my arm crossed across my chest.

I will be at St. Margaret Mary Church in Oakland during at least one week day 6 PM Mass per week, if anyone wants to fellowship after the service?

Richard


#5

Episcopal just means bishop - the priest was specifically delegated to perform the 1962 mass by the bishop, thus making him an “Episcopal delegate.”

The Episcopal church calls itself Episcopal because the highest authorities they have are their bishops - they don’t have a Pope figure. The term “episcopal” isn’t specific to Episcopalians.


#6

Episcopal is used here as an adjective for Bishop. It means he is the diocesan official in charge of managing the Indult.

the Episcopal Church is so called because it puts final authority in the hands of each bishop. [Contrary to the opinion of one Episcopal pastor I knew, who contended that in his parish the final authority seemed to be the previous pastor. :smiley: ]


#7

Definitions of ‘episcopal’ (ĭ-pĭskə-pəl) - 3 definitions - The American Heritage® Dictionary

episcopal (adj.) Of or relating to a bishop.
episcopal (adj.) Of, relating to, or involving church government by bishops.
episcopal (adj.) Of or relating to the Episcopal Church.


#8

Havent you ever seen a biretta before? Although they are not as common as they used to be, Bishops and Cardinals are still required wear them on certain occaisions. Also, I’m not sure that the Anglicans/Episcopalians have the biretta.

“Episcopal delegate” merely means that Fr. Wiener is has been given authority by the local Bishop over the Indult for the Traditional Mass in that Diocese. Fr. Wiener, I can assure you, is Catholic- I can even dig out a picture I have of him ministering as Deacon during a Pontifical High Mass celebrated by none other then (who was at the time) Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger :wink:


#9

Thanks, belonging to this forum is like going to college.

Richard


#10

I looked at the photo of the elevation at Mass at this parish’s website. It looks like the priest faces the people instead of ad orientum. I thought the TLM and especially the Institute of Christ the King that staffs this parish was always ad orientum?

Anyone know why the photo shows otherwise?


#11

The parish also has NO Masses. It appears that their TLM are celebrated facing the altar. But the rubrics of the TLM do provide instructions for the celebrant facing the people.


#12

St. MargaretMary is a Roman Catholic church, located in the diocese of Oakland. The parish is in Alameda county. The diocese’s web site is difficult to find: www.oakdiocese.org.

The funny ‘hats’ may have beem a birettum, (has three wings on top, topped by a small pom-pom.) I didn’t know they were that rare.
peace
mgrfin


#13

I was age 21 in 1962 when the Latin Mass went south, so I can remember the Tridentine Mass during the 50’s, while I was a teenager. Everything was traditional as I remember it, including the Priest facing the alter, the gestures made by the alter boys, and the Rosary as part of the Mass. Next Sunday’s Mass is listed as a High Mass and the church has a pipe organ. I can’t remember the ritual off hand, but we can expect plenty of smoke, that‘s for sure. Oakland has been blessed with a traditional (7 days a week) catholic church. I plan to spend a lot of time in the peace and quiet of that church.

Richard


#14

As such the public rosary isn’t part of the Mass though it may be common (and salutary) to pray it in common before/after the Mass

Next Sunday’s Mass is listed as a High Mass and the church has a pipe organ. I can’t remember the ritual off hand, but we can expect plenty of smoke, that‘s for sure. Oakland has been blessed with a traditional (7 days a week) catholic church. I plan to spend a lot of time in the peace and quiet of that church.Richard

:thumbsup:


#15

The Rosary is not part of the Mass, whether Tridentine, or current.
A high mass is sung, with one priest, and gregorian chant which I loved. Lots of ‘smoke’ (incense); I wonder if the environmentalists will get after that. I enjoy it when I can. Usually on ETWN from Rome for Easter and Christmas.
Incense is used at the Gospel, The Offertory and the Consecration. (Incense is put on live coals which are in a thurible)
They also had one from Mexico for the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

mgrfin


#16

Bless my soul!

You were there, in the flesh, you managed to find the website, you were raised a Catholic in the years of the old rite before opting to become a Protestant, and you take your mother-in-law to Mass every weekend, and you even have enough familiarity with the Catholic Church to know where the local Tridentine Mass is held daily. Plus at 2:42 AM you posted

So you knew it to be Catholic then… but after attending, by 11:05 you were confused?

All this and you were still confused about if this parish was Catholic and what a biretta is?

How could this be?

Well bless your heart, either way.


#17

I already answered this post. It was a legitimate R.C. Parish in the Diocese of Oakland. The hat is a birettum. Biretta is plural.
My Tridentine Roman Missal says August 9th is the Vigil of St. Laurence, Martyr. Alternatively, you could use the Mass of St. Romanus. August 10th is the Feast of St. Laurence, (2nd Class Feast). August is a slow month. c. 225 – 258) (Latin: Laurentius - “laurelled”) was one of the seven deacons of ancient Rome who was martyred under the persecution of Roman Emperor Valerian in the year 258

mgrfin


#18

Okay, I‚m not used to seeing a biretta hat. On the front page of the church bulletin it says, „Father Stanislaw Zak Pastor, Rev. Michael Wiener, Episcopal Delegate for the Latin Rite of 1962 Indult in the Diocese of Oakland and Larysz Rutkowska, Administrative Assistant‰ The biretta hat and Episcopal minister listed had me wondering what church I was in?

“Episcopal” means “pertaining to bishops”, not necessarily that one is a member of an Anglican church. (It is always an adjective, btw. “Episcopalian” is a noun.)

The very word “biretta” is Italian. It is the traditional liturgical headgear of the Roman rite. (However, there are some Anglican clergy who wear it.)

There is an academic 4-bladed biretta, worn by graduates or doctors of some Italian, Spanish, and French universities. I once saw a female doctorate wear one in the academic procession of a Baptist university. :smiley:


#19

I must confess that I’ve never once seen a biretta/birettum in person, despite being a weekly church-goer. They really aren’t at all that common in Average Catholicland.


#20

When I receive Holy Communion in my Orthodox Church, I cross my arms, what you did is very Orthodox.
If you ever have a chance, try to attend an Eastern Rite Catholic Church. There are about 20 different Eastern Churches connected to Rome, with I think 5 different Rites.:slight_smile:
The Church you were at is definitely Roman Catholic. The reason they used the word Episcopal is because that word comes from the Greek Episkopos which the English translate as Bishop or Pastor, or Shepherd.


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