Is Trinity/Deity of Jesus Christ false??

Hi;

Recently I found that web site…

reslight.addr.com/l-trinity.html

it is the most detailed and “scholarly” rebuttals to beliefs like Trinity/Deity of Christ…

I looked for a trinitarian site which capable to respond them but I couldn’t find…

Which group is a “cult” which one is “Christian”? I’m confused…

You will probably say “Never mind what Bible really says,There were some church fathers who believed Trinity,Deity of Jesus Christ just becouse of this, these beliefs are certainly correct…”

but Ýt’s not convincing enough for me…

If They are right (I found their argument so convincing) doesn’t that make Catholics,Protestants,Evangelicals,Calvinists,Orthodoxs…etc “cults” ? and “heretics”?

In nomine Jesu I offer you peace,

The mysteries of Faith are revealed as truths, but the purpose of their revelation is life. They are received by the intelligence, but they perfect their work in the will. They enlighten the mind, but they inflame the heart. Nothing has been told us by god as a mere matter for remembrance, but it is committed to us to become a means to achieve the higher life. Even the doctrine of the Trinity comes as an aid in the struggle of my soul to its perfect development, not as a mere puzzle that I have with difficulty to remember in some examination by God or man.

Let me, then, consider the meaning of this mystery as far as the halting and inadequate language of human thought allows me to do so. All the while I must be conscious that I am using human expressions and therefore merely endeavoring to state infinite things in finite categories, to pack divinity into human pigeon-holes. But there can be no harm in my making use of such a method (namely, the attempt to grasp the meaning of mysteries), so long as I realize that any such attempt must be frankly inadequate. The use of this must be fairly admitted, since it is something (for which I should be eternally grateful) to have even an incomplete view of God, so long as it is the best view that at the moment is possible to me. The Church has never suggested that, with the advance of time, she does not obtain a clearer comprehension of the truths of Faith; indeed, she has frequently proclaimed by repeated decisions and definitions the gradual unfolding of her sacred deposit.

The Blessed Trinity is, then, the name we give to that mystery of the divine Persons, who are there yet one, Father and Son and Holy Spirit, constituting in Themselves one single God. Of these, the Father represents power, for I begin my Creed by professing belief in “God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth.” To God in the person of the Father, therefore, I attribute omnipotence.

Of the Son, I learn that He is the Word (the Logos as the Greek of the Gospel terms it, making use of the very phrase current among the philosophers of the time) or the Father, that He is the figure of the Father’s substance, the brightness of the Father’s glory. By all of this, I see that the Son is represented as the reflected image of the Father, the idea that the Father has of Himself, the knowledge of Himself in the mind of the Father, the exact reproduction of Himself begotten of His own intelligence. To the Son, therefore, I attribute wisdom.

Now, God knowing Himself must love Himself. His perfections are so lovable that once (if these expressions of time may be used of that which is outside all time) God is known even to Himself, He must be loved. Hence, the love of the saints toward Him is not free, but follows necessarily from the sight of Him. Hence, also, God’s knowledge of Himself must be followed by a second or final act, His love. That love, then, which proceeds from the Father and the Son (for in love, there are always two) is the Holy Spirit. It must not be forgotten that we are trying to put into human language what is above language, but we can in this way obtain some glimpse of the truth.

By my belief in the Holy Trinity, then, I acknowledge, in one single God, Power, Wisdom, and Love, and I repeat that these three are one. Therefore are these three inseparable. I cannot suppose that one can operate without the other two, since it is part of my belief that they constitute a Trinity.

Now surely I do see what an immense effect such a doctrine must have upon life. It is no mere question for theologians, but one that concerns every living soul. Whatever is allowed by God’s power must be guided by His wisdom and urged on by His love.

All that happens to me in life, that little worries and the great anxieties, the crises and the daily annoyances, the sorrows and the joys, the harms that reach me through the sins of others, the great crimes of history, the huge and devastating wars, the partings and loves and the whole cycle of human experience are permitted by Power, which is itself wise and loving. These three Persons determine my life, and, since I walk by faith, I must surely grow very patient in my attitude toward life. For how can I complain or criticize God’s Providence, since it all comes under that triple influence of Power, Wisdom, and Love?

Under the guidance, then, of this mystery, I can walk through the valley of death or the more perilous borders of sin without loss of courage or hopefulness. Nothing can make me afraid. How these are separate, yet one, I do not know, nor can I reconcile in my concrete experience the claims of each. It is always a mystery, but a mystery in which I believe. Whatever Power allows on earth is designed in Wisdom and attuned by Love.

Jusst a couple of points.

  1. Convincing arguements don’t mean truthful arguements. Satan is very convincing, but no-one will claim that he is truthful.

  2. The Catholic Church is the standard by which heresy is determined. The Catholic Church contains the full deposit of faith, anyone who deviates from its doctrines teaches heresy. That being said, how can the standard deviate from itself? Since Jesus gave the Church the Holy Spirit as its guide and protector, it cannot.

[quote=Ozanf]Hi;

Recently I found that web site…

reslight.addr.com/l-trinity.html

it is the most detailed and “scholarly” rebuttals to beliefs like Trinity/Deity of Christ…

I looked for a trinitarian site which capable to respond them but I couldn’t find…

Which group is a “cult” which one is “Christian”? I’m confused…

You will probably say “Never mind what Bible really says,There were some church fathers who believed Trinity,Deity of Jesus Christ just becouse of this, these beliefs are certainly correct…”

but Ýt’s not convincing enough for me…

If They are right (I found their argument so convincing) doesn’t that make Catholics,Protestants,Evangelicals,Calvinists,Orthodoxs…etc “cults” ? and “heretics”?
[/quote]

One cannot read the Gospel of John in an objective manner and come away thinking that John did not believe that Jesus was God. It is simply not in question that the church fathers thought that Jesus was a divine being. In my opinion, the concept of the Trinity developed as the only possible explanation for the divinity of Christ.

[quote=Tmaque]One cannot read the Gospel of John in an objective manner and come away thinking that John did not believe that Jesus was God. It is simply not in question that the church fathers thought that Jesus was a divine being. In my opinion, the concept of the Trinity developed as the only possible explanation for the divinity of Christ.
[/quote]

In nomine Jesu I offer you peace,

I could offer an alternative “metaphysic” to the Trinity and still maintian the divinity of Jesus with a “more” intact Oneness of God.

It’s not that difficult, honestly but I offer this as merely a demostration and not as an attempt to deny or refute Church teachings.

Peace, Love and Blessings,

Don’t forget that, at times, Jesus spoke from his human perspective, thereby sounding very fallible and un-Godlike.
At other times, he did not.
“I and the Father are one,” Jn 10:30

Read Theology for Beginners by Frank Sheed for the best explanation of the Blessed Trinity.
Had I but the time, I could match them Scripture -for-Scripture. Unfortunately…
ALWAYS REMEMBER, the Bible is a Catholic book. Nothing in the Bible can contradict Catholic Doctrine or Dogma. The Trinity is Doctrine.

ozanf:

The doctrine of the Trinity basically consists of affirming 7 statements as true:

  1. Jesus is God
  2. The Father is God
  3. The Spirit is God
  4. Jesus is not the Father
  5. The Spirit is not the Father
  6. Jesus is not the Spirit
  7. There is only one God

In my experience, most of those who attack the Trinity do so by citing texts which actually affirm 2 or more of the above, and then assume that if those are true, the others cannot be true. I have never seen any anti-Trinitarian cite any passages which expressly deny any of these seven statements, and we can easily muster numerous passages to support each of them.

The two types of anti-Trinitarians I’ve run into are (1) the more traditional Arminians, who affirm 2,4, and 7, and assert that because those are clearly true, 1 & 3 cannot be and (2) the one-ness Pentecostals, who affirm 1,2,3, and 7, and assert that because those are clearly true, 4,5, and 6 cannot be. I was recently in a debate on the Trinity on a message board where I was attacked from both of these positions. I politely shut up and let them duke it out awhile. :slight_smile:

So why did Jesus Christ command Baptism in the name of (by the power and authority of) the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? This is the “Stupid Jesus” thesis. Christ taking on positional subservience to the Father is in contradistinction to Lucifer’s exalting himself above God’s throne. Christ became obedient unto death. May we “hear and obey” and flee ear-tickling lies.

Websites like this Trinity-attacking site (which also features Hislop’s anti-Catholic spewings, “Two Babylons”) make me feel like I need a bath. More pertinent would be the New Testament prophecy about intellectuals being allowed by God to be self-deluded. Anybody got that reference?

Here’s their citation of Eusebius from that anti-Catholic/anti-Trinity site. Eusebius seems to support the Tri-Unity they loathe while they use him to prop up the position of the pre-existent Christ, another popular fad. Hey, what if Melchizedek was…Melchizedek?

*He [AUTO] it is who, being extended from the middle to the ends and from the extremities to the middle, runs the full length of nature’s invincible course, bring all the parts together and binding them fast. For the Father who begat Him made Him an indissoluble bond of the universe. … since the Divine LOGOS sets himself as a boundary of the elements.” *[Eusebius, *Preparation of the Gospel]

Ozanf: I looked for a trinitarian site which capable to respond them but I couldn’t find.

You didn’t look hard enough…try this and let me know what you think.

Thanks…

christian-thinktank.com/trin01.html

Ok. John1:1

In the English translation it is very easy to see that Jesus is God.

However, they are saying that in the Greek translation, the word God (and the Word was God) lacks the nominative modifier. I forgot what this word was.

They are saying that this indicates that the word God is not a noun but a modifier or adjective. ex divine. The explanation being that anything that comes out of God is divine. so they use the Moffat version of the Bible to come up with this proof.

I know the Moffat version is not credible but what of the greek translation

“You didn’t look hard enough…try this and let me know what you think.”

Yes Ýt’s good, thanks…

I also found that so usefull web site…

www.forananswer.org

Aris:

Yep, they’ll inevitably question the English translation and say they understand better, because of their knowledge of Greek, what John really believed and taught.

On the other hand, you’ve got the writings of St. Ignatius, who was a companion of the Apostle John for many, many years, and succeeded him as leader of the church in Antioch when John passed away. Unlike us, who have access to only a small handful of John’s writings, in a dead language which wasn’t his own native tongue, at 2000 years remove, Ignatius listened to John himself preach daily for years and years. In his letters, Ignatius refers to Jesus as God over and over and over again. So, who do you suppose has a better grasp of the type of Christianity John taught: the “scholars” on this website you’re looking at, or Ignatius? I’d put my money on Ignatius.

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace…

There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord. " Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians

[quote=Aris]Ok. John1:1

In the English translation it is very easy to see that Jesus is God.

However, they are saying that in the Greek translation, the word God (and the Word was God) lacks the nominative modifier. I forgot what this word was.

They are saying that this indicates that the word God is not a noun but a modifier or adjective. ex divine. The explanation being that anything that comes out of God is divine. so they use the Moffat version of the Bible to come up with this proof.

I know the Moffat version is not credible but what of the greek translation
[/quote]

I disagree with their conclusion but it doesn’t matter even if they’re correct. So what if “God” in this instance is an adjective meaning “divine”? The Word was divine then, “and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” The Word is divine, the Word is Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is divine.

I disagree with the notion that anything that comes out of God is divine. Didn’t we all come out of God? Are we divine? No. But, the Word is divine…Jesus is divine.

Peace Scott,

If you are searching for any answers in Christianity, first try and find out how the question HANGS on the greatest commandments.

Can the words of the second commandment describe the Trinity and how Christ is one with the Father?

Christ loves the father as he loves HIMSELF.
The Father loves Christ as he loves HIMSELF.

Can there be any greater love between them?

If we are created in the image of God would it make more sense if the words of the greatest commandments had a greatest meaning for the Father and Son also?

Here is a short passage that uses the same language to describe one flesh, as you read it search in your heart for the profound mystery.

Ephesians 5:31 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery- but I am talking about Christ and the Church. However each one of you also must love his wife as he loves HIMSELF, and the wife must respect her husband.

In marriage it seems the ideal relationship would have the husband and wife, two separate people with separate needs become as one through the words of the greatest commandments.

One description of the church is one body with many parts.

To be as one requires us to love others as we love ourselves, tough commandment.

This is only my interpretation, but can it be a heresy?

[quote=Scott_Lafrance]The Catholic Church contains the full deposit of faith, anyone who deviates from its doctrines teaches heresy.
[/quote]

Peace

Eric

Ummm, thanks, I think. Can anyone take a guess as to the meaning of this enigmatic post?

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_7.gif

[quote=Eric Hyom] Peace Scott,

If you are searching for any answers in Christianity, first try and find out how the question HANGS on the greatest commandments.

Can the words of the second commandment describe the Trinity and how Christ is one with the Father?

Christ loves the father as he loves HIMSELF.
The Father loves Christ as he loves HIMSELF.

Can there be any greater love between them?

If we are created in the image of God would it make more sense if the words of the greatest commandments had a greatest meaning for the Father and Son also?

Here is a short passage that uses the same language to describe one flesh, as you read it search in your heart for the profound mystery.

Ephesians 5:31 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery- but I am talking about Christ and the Church. However each one of you also must love his wife as he loves HIMSELF, and the wife must respect her husband.

In marriage it seems the ideal relationship would have the husband and wife, two separate people with separate needs become as one through the words of the greatest commandments.

One description of the church is one body with many parts.

To be as one requires us to love others as we love ourselves, tough commandment.

This is only my interpretation, but can it be a heresy?

Peace

Eric
[/quote]

Peace Scott,

Here is a simplistic, yet more profound way to test the power of the greatest commandments when looking at a purpose for the creation of everything.

Did God have a complete plan for the creation of the universe, did he think ahead? Was Christ’s life on Earth planned before the creation of the universe began?

To search for a deeper meaning, it seems that Christ had to accept his sacrifice before creation could start, so would his sacrifice have been intended for all people?

Would it mean that the Father had a purpose for man so great that creation could not be achieved in any lesser way?

What purpose can be so great, that it would compel God to create the universe and life, knowing that his son would have to die?

Would it be to forgive us our sins?

Or can there be something greater?

Challenge your mind to find a greatest good purpose for the creation of the universe and life; by searching for answers to three questions.

1…What greatest thing can God create?

God could create all the stars and planets of the universe; he then becomes God the builder.
God could create a whole variety of life with almost no intelligence like plants; he now becomes God the gardener’
God could create life with more intelligence but if the knowledge and intelligence is limited he has now created the animal kingdom. He now becomes God the farmer.
God could create life in his own image, a life that could understand him. Creating life in his own image is the greatest form of creation open to him. He now becomes God the Father.
Does the greatest thing that God creates, depend on the relationship that he can have with them?

2… What greatest purpose can God have to create children in his own image?

The greatest reason God can have to create children is love.
Therefore the ultimate God humanity can have is a God who loves in the greatest way.

God willingly loves all of mankind as he loves HIMSELF.

Would this be a love so great, that even God could not love in a greater way?

Can there be any greater reason to create children, even for God?

3…To find a greatest purpose for all God’s children.

What greatest purpose could God set for humanity? Would it be for everyone to turn to His kind of religion and pray the way that he stipulates, or would it be to banish poverty, gain intellectual superiority, conquer sickness and death, and subdue the universe or is there more?

If the greatest reason God can have to create mankind, is to love each and everyone of us, as he loves himself, then God could create mankind, with the freedom to return God’s love

Each and every member of mankind to be created with the freedom to love God the creator unconditionally, so are we given the greatest commandment as a guide.

God willingly loves everyone as he loves himself; we also need this same freedom to love everyone in the same way, so that the truth can be complete for God and mankind.

Each and every member of mankind, to be created with the freedom to love their neighbour; as they love themselves unconditionally; are we given the second greatest commandment as a guide.

Is this how God wants his children to be one? He wants us to love each other as we love ourselves.

Could the greatest commandments be written for God in the following way?

God loves himself and all that he does.

God loves all his neighbours / children as he loves himself.

When you ask the question; why did Christ say they are the greatest commandment, can it possibly be because God can do nothing greater and man can do nothing greater.

Could the greatest commandments be an Ultimate Truth?

If our greatest purpose for creation is to live by the greatest commandments, then this freedom to love also gives us the choice to do both good and evil.

This is only a collection of words to challenge the mind to think, I cannot make any claims from these words, they are written without any qualifications, authority, or any conscious revelations from God.

The Catholic Church does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity based upon anything written in the New Testament. The NT is a reflection of the teaching Church that wrote it, not the other way around. The doctrine of the Trinity came from the oral teaching of the Apostles.

JMJ Jay

Peace Katholikos,

Can the Spirit referred to in the Trinity possibly be the second commandment? Can it possibly be when Christ meets the needs of the Father in a selfless way, and then the Spirit is at its greatest? Can it possibly be when we do a selfless act to meet the needs of another that the Spirit is working at its greatest within us?

What did Christ mean when he said all the law and the prophets HANG on the greatest commandments?

What else is in the Bible apart from the law and the prophets of God?

Does all the Bible hang on the greatest commandments?

These commandments seem truly profound to me

peace

Eric

  1. Convincing arguements don’t mean truthful arguements. Satan is very convincing, but no-one will claim that he is truthful.
  2. The Catholic Church is the standard by which heresy is determined. The Catholic Church contains the full deposit of faith, anyone who deviates from its doctrines teaches heresy. That being said, how can the standard deviate from itself? Since Jesus gave the Church the Holy Spirit as its guide and protector, it cannot.

The only truth in statement number 2 is that Jesus gave His Holy Spirit to the Church; His church, not anyone else’s.

Well out of the mouths of babes! Jesus said it, and most still won’t listen.
You really don’t know that much about church history, false documents and forged ones too boot! The fact that your own church admits to this should be enough warning but that they still cling to them is totally absurd.

If you knew the truth behind the Catholic Church and read your Bible you would find that the RCC teaches exactly opposite of what Yahveh and His Messiah Jesus taught in the whole of Scripture.

Jesus and the apostles warned about the heresies the RCC and all cults have been teaching long before there was ever a RCC, there were cults even in Jesus day. Babylon and Egypt come to mind.

This He said to Israel!
Isaiah 42:6-8 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; *To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
*Fulfilled in Jesus, but the ultimate fulfillment comes in the tribulation which is not that far off. Come to Him and worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. Those who trust Him are to proclaim His Gospel.

Redeemed,

What is the truth about the RCC and the lies to which you speak. How about posting some of these on a thread?

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