Islam and fear


#1

I read in the Telegraph that Spain has an annual festival that mocks political, religious, and social figures. This year they decided to “self censor” and not include Islam. They admitted they were afraid. Likewise villages that had festivals celebrating the Spanish victory over the Moors have decided not to have them.

The reason is obvious. Fear. They know that they could be killed for exercising free speech. They refuse to fight back. They continue to mock those who do or would fight back. This is cultural suicide. One morning they will wake up to the call of the azan and the sound of stones smashing the heads of their grandaughters who refuse to cover their heads. Islam is not a religion of peace, but of fear.


#2

I’m so sick of this dhimmi attitude already. When are we going to stop lying to ourselves and see this religion for what it really is? Everybody seems either too naive or too afraid to look at Islam in an objective manner, much less talk openly about it.


#3

Come to the Far East, those Asians will invite them for a little walk and that would be the end of it. I’m serious! If you guys understand the Islamic culture, the Muslims won’t stop demanding until they have everything under their belt. They like to demand or have it their way, but don’t give jack in return. If they continue to push it, we (the West) will rise up and it will not be pretty.


#4

Everybody seems either too naive or too afraid to look at Islam in an objective manner, much less talk openly about it.

dhimmiwatch.org does not look at Islam in an objective manner.

Fomenting hatred against a people that are already under attack is irresponsible and wrong. We are all behaving just like the Nazis did towards Jews before the holocaust, and some us are trying hard apparently to recreate that monstrosity with a new target group.


#5

Few things you all need to know.

  1. What is the meaning of Arabic word Dhimmi?

  2. What are the rights of a Dhimmi in an ideal Islamic state?

  3. What is the difference between a Citizen and an Immigrant/refugee in any Western country nowadays?

  4. What is the difference between a Chruch member and a non-member?

  5. What rights Martin Luther had after his excommincation from the RCC?

  6. What did Martin Luther do after his official excommunication from the RCC?

  7. Let’s say there are two Catholics in an European country. One is a Citizen and other is a Refugee from Thailand. Are these two have perfect equal rights in that European country, simply because they belong to one Catholic Church and prfess same Nicean creed? Is it possible for Thailand’s Refugee Catholic to recieve same benefits/previlages as the other European citizen Catholic?


#6

[quote=pro_universal]dhimmiwatch.org does not look at Islam in an objective manner.

Fomenting hatred against a people that are already under attack is irresponsible and wrong. We are all behaving just like the Nazis did towards Jews before the holocaust, and some us are trying hard apparently to recreate that monstrosity with a new target group.
[/quote]

Nobody mentioned the dhimmiwatch.org site OR “fomenting hatred”. Get back on the subject.


#7

exoflare,

I am exactly on point. I refer to your comment:

If they continue to push it, we (the West) will rise up and it will not be pretty.

The people who claim that muslims are “pushing the west” and that they intend to make us “dhimmis” are the ones fomenting hatred, and they rely on information identical to, if not from, sites like dhimmiwatch.org.

Take a look at whose militaries are attacking where. The idea that muslims are the ones threatening the western way of life is preposterous.

What is happening, however, is that westerners are starting to buy into the propaganda mill, which turns words like “dhimmi” (if I were an Arabic speaker, I’d say I were a dhimmi of the US government-it means protected) into secret nefarious plots against “freedom.”

No one in America or Europe has to worry about some Arab from the Arabian peninsula coming to his house and forcing him to pray like a muslim. But on the other side of the coin, if you were an Arab today living in the middle east, what reason would you have to not worry about foreign troops attacking you or having an errant bomb kill your family?

This is why I say that statements like those above and art which defames islam are fomenting hatred. Just as the nazis made up a bunch of things about the jews and turned a relatively powerless people into some evil, secret, force, today propagandists are doing the same thing to muslims. It is wrong and false, and I’m shocked that more people don’t see just how similar the wave of muslim bashing is to the nazi propaganda of old.


#8

[quote=pro_universal]exoflare,

I am exactly on point. I refer to your comment:
[/quote]

MY comment?


#9

exoflare,

My mistake, that was MugenOne.

Everybody seems either too naive or too afraid to look at Islam in an objective manner, much less talk openly about it

That one’s in a similar vein though.

I do also wish people would talk about islam in an open and objective manner. If they would, we wouldn’t be so ready for war all the time and we might not be so callous to a region that is suffering greatly. It’s a lot easier to blame the victims when we can fantasize that they are at fault for or otherwise deserving of their fates.


#10

To be honest, I don’t know the origin of the word “dhimmi” or all the intricacies and nuances of the term… but I guess I should use a different word or something if it’s really that misleading. In any case, I’m talking about people who are afraid to discuss Islam objectively purely for fear of offending Muslims. The very fact that such fear is so widespread contradicts such people’s claims of Islam as a “peaceful” and “tolerant” religion anyway.


#11

Your comment on ‘dhimmi’ here, exo. Since these guys are muslims so they couldnt digest what ‘dhimmi’ you are talking about lol. :))


#12

The very fact that such fear is so widespread contradicts such people’s claims of Islam as a “peaceful” and “tolerant” religion anyway.

Uh, how widespread is this fear? Sure doesn’t stop people from saying bad things about islam on TV, on the radio, in print, on the internet, etc etc.

I think it’s quite silly to be afraid of muslims. Look at whose armies are where, and then explain to me how muslims are going to “convert all of us by force.”


#13

[quote=pro_universal]I do also wish people would talk about islam in an open and objective manner. If they would, we wouldn’t be so ready for war all the time and we might be so callous to a region that is suffering greatly. It’s a lot easier to blame the victims when we can fantasize that they are at fault for or otherwise deserving of their fates.
[/quote]

Could you be more specific? I don’t see what any of this has to do with the religion of Islam itself though. This isn’t really a thread to delve into politics, here.


#14

Could you be more specific? I don’t see what any of this has to do with the religion of Islam itself though. This isn’t really a thread to delve into politics, here.

Yes. If there were an honest and unbiased discussion of islam before the attack on Iraq, Americans might not have been so willing to support it. However, the belief that muslims are all irrational and that their religion commands them to kill us is prevalent here, and I think that was a big contributing factor in the run-up to the war. If the government had tried to sell the same lines against a dictator in South America, for example, I doubt it would have been as easily swallowed by the public.

Politics matter here because that’s where the most potential damage due to false ideas about muslims will come from. When someone posts a thread about how evil islam is and other people believe it, that’s more ammunition for people who’d like to make war on the middle east for whatever reason…makes their attempts to justify attacks that much easier.

The first post in this thread alleges that muslims are actually trying to conquer Europe and America, and further implies that such a conquest is a realistic possibility. That kind of hype does nothing besides justify more attacks on muslims, even though anyone with eyes can see that the muslim countries pose zero threat to western hegemony.


#15

Of course not, they just have to worry about having their skyscrapers, embassies, nightclubs, trains and buses bombed to smithereens and thousands of civilians killed (a la Israel, Egypt, London, Madrid, New York, American embassies in Africa, Washington, Bali, the Australian embassy in Jakarta … the list is as long as my arm).

Muslim groups CLAIM responsibility for most if not all of these, so it’s not like it’s completely basesless propaganda being manufactured by the West as Hitler was doing against the Jews.

Iraq in the minds of a lot of people (certainly in mine) is a different kettle of fish entirely to the war on terror - for one thing Saddam was only after his own power, not espousing Islamic ideals. For another there was a well-defined enemy and theatre of battle. As far as terrorism goes, the entire world is the battle ground for both sides.


#16

[quote=pro_universal]Uh, how widespread is this fear? Sure doesn’t stop people from saying bad things about islam on TV, on the radio, in print, on the internet, etc etc.
[/quote]

The internet is a fairly anonymous medium to spread ideas, when we want it to be. It’s pretty obvious why this is an exception to the rule (not to mention why Saudi Arabia has such a heavy grip of all internet traffic that’s let into the country). As for the TV, radio and in print, I can’t imagine why you’d think there are such “bad things” about Islam said on a constant basis?

Side note: your tactic to try and blur the line between saying anything negative about Islam at all, and pure ad-hominem attacks isn’t going to work… as much as you may want people to see them as necessarily one and the same.

I think it’s quite silly to be afraid of muslims. Look at whose armies are where, and then explain to me how muslims are going to “convert all of us by force.”

This is a ridiculously vague potshot with no real substance. And no, I didn’t say the Muslims are necessarily going to “convert all of us by force”… you’re going to have to stop being so purposefully vague and putting words in my mouth.


#17

Of course not, they just have to worry about having their skyscrapers, embassies, nightclubs, trains and buses bombed to smithereens and thousands of civilians killed (a la Israel, Egypt, London, Madrid, New York, American embassies in Africa, Washington, Bali, the Australian embassy in Jakarta … the list is as long as my arm).

Right, compare that to the worry of having your entire country overrun by a foreign army, and having thousands of pounds of bombs dropped near your neighborhoods. Terror attacks are psychologically devastating and evil, but they do not threaten to wipe out our entire civilization. Invading and dismantling the government, as happened recently in Iraq, does threaten to do just that to the Iraqis. I’d say it’s a fair bet, also, that errant bombs and crossfire have already claimed many more innocent iraqi lives than terrorism has in America.

The main point: they have much more to worry about than we do at this point.

Muslim groups CLAIM responsibility for most if not all of these, so it’s not like it’s completely basesless propaganda being manufactured by the West as Hitler was doing against the Jews.

Okay, so if there were any individual jews who claimed responsibility for the depression, would that have justified the propaganda which vilified all Jews as economic slave-drivers?

Iraq in the minds of a lot of people (certainly in mine) is a different kettle of fish entirely to the war on terror - for one thing Saddam was only after his own power, not espousing Islamic ideals. For another there was a well-defined enemy and theatre of battle

Sure, it’s easy to say that now, but there was clearly a “they’re all muslims who want to kill us!” attitude in the run-up to the Iraq war, and it did play a roll. I do not believe such flimsy justifications for war could have been successfully sold if people weren’t already predisposed to believing that muslims are generally bad.

Now that it’s turned into a quagmire people aren’t so enthused, of course.


#18

Side note: your tactic to try and blur the line between saying anything negative about Islam at all, and pure ad-hominem attacks isn’t going to work… as much as you may want people to see them as necessarily one and the same.

Uh, where did I accuse anyone of ad hominems? I’m saying that most of the anti-muslim propaganda is flat out false or at least grossly misleading. You can see it on the O’Reilly Factor, in books by Robert Spencer, and on a variety of programs frequented by commentators like Anne Coulter. There’s even a congressman who suggested “nuking mecca” in public (Tom Tancredo.)

This is a ridiculously vague potshot with no real substance. And no, I didn’t say the Muslims are necessarily going to “convert all of us by force”… you’re going to have to stop being so purposefully vague and putting words in my mouth.

I was talking about the first post. If you don’t believe muslims represent a real threat to the west, how was your posting on this thread connected to the first comment?

This is a thread about how islam supposedly threatens to impose some nefarious form of “islamic law” (whatever that means) on me and my family. That’s what I’m responding to.


#19

Maybe no one will force anyone to convert. But you can’t ask people to be tolerant and respectful to you when you’re intolerant and disrespectful to to others. Political correctness and liberal sensitivity are killing us.

[quote=pro_universal]exoflare,

I am exactly on point. I refer to your comment:

The people who claim that muslims are “pushing the west” and that they intend to make us “dhimmis” are the ones fomenting hatred, and they rely on information identical to, if not from, sites like dhimmiwatch.org.

Take a look at whose militaries are attacking where. The idea that muslims are the ones threatening the western way of life is preposterous.

What is happening, however, is that westerners are starting to buy into the propaganda mill, which turns words like “dhimmi” (if I were an Arabic speaker, I’d say I were a dhimmi of the US government-it means protected) into secret nefarious plots against “freedom.”

No one in America or Europe has to worry about some Arab from the Arabian peninsula coming to his house and forcing him to pray like a muslim. But on the other side of the coin, if you were an Arab today living in the middle east, what reason would you have to not worry about foreign troops attacking you or having an errant bomb kill your family?

This is why I say that statements like those above and art which defames islam are fomenting hatred. Just as the nazis made up a bunch of things about the jews and turned a relatively powerless people into some evil, secret, force, today propagandists are doing the same thing to muslims. It is wrong and false, and I’m shocked that more people don’t see just how similar the wave of muslim bashing is to the nazi propaganda of old.
[/quote]


#20

Maybe no one will force anyone to convert. But you can’t ask people to be tolerant and respectful to you when you’re intolerant and disrespectful to to others. Political correctness and liberal sensitivity are killing us.

Okay…maybe we can be a little more specific.

Just what counter-measures to “political correctness” would you suggest?

What should we be less sensitive to?

Some specific examples would really help me to understand what you’re talking about.


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