Islam or christianity which is true and why do you believe it is


#208

The question does not apply to God, who is transcendent above His creation.

My goodness, I asked you to tell me the answer to the necessity of revelation.

I merely quoted Augustine and Thomas Aquinas on what the Catholic position is, as reiterated by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange. So, you believe the Crucifixion is the answer as to why God allows so much suffering in the world? But then it may be asked, if God is omnipotent, and all good, shouldn’t He have prevented evil and suffering from the beginning?

Yeah, you definitely don’t know what you’re talking about. Even when I was an ex Muslim, I didn’t bring up Taqiyya against Muslims, because I knew what it actually was.

That depends on what you even know about Sufism. Besides, I already stated “I follow the Shaafi school of jurisprudence and Asha`ri school of theology, I have an interest in joining either the Naqshbandi or Qadiri Sufi orders.”

Do you actually read my posts?


#209

God’s transcendence does not remove His immanence. It is in God that we breathe, move and have our being:

Acts 17:28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being,’[a] as even some of your poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’

Whereas, you believe that God can not enter His creation. Thus, you believe that God is finite.

My goodness, I asked you to tell me the answer to the necessity of revelation.

Then you’ll need to be more clear in your language. The necessity of revelation is proven by the fact that God had to become man in order to show men who to come to come to God.

I merely quoted Augustine and Thomas Aquinas on what the Catholic position is, as reiterated by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange. So, you believe the Crucifixion is the answer as to why God allows so much suffering in the world? But then it may be asked, if God is omnipotent, and all good, shouldn’t He have prevented evil and suffering from the beginning?

No. God is all loving. But He doesn’t coerce our love. That is why He gave mankind free will. He gave His creatures all opportunity to choose to be good. It is some of His creatures who chose to become evil.

But, let’s compare to your religion. Or are you afraid to provide the Islamic answer?

Yeah, you definitely don’t know what you’re talking about. Even when I was an ex Muslim, I didn’t bring up Taqiyya against Muslims, because I knew what it actually was.

Lol! The reason you don’t bring up Taqiyya, is because you know that no one can trust any Muslim, because they believe in lying. Thus, your answers here are also suspect. Since you believe in lying.

That depends on what you even know about Sufism. …

No, it depends on whether or not you are a Sufi. My knowledge of Sufism has nothing to do with your involvement in it.

Do you actually read my posts?

Yes. But I expect answers to direct questions. I won’t be led down rabbit trails.

And, you will learn that you aren’t some sort of interrogator. Your beliefs will be tested just as much as you think you can test ours. As for this, right now we’re focusing on how you believe that your God can be outside of creation. Yet you claim that your God is also omnipresent.


#210

Lol! I’m not reading all of that. You said you had written the Islamic answer to why good people suffer. Pull that out of your thesis and let’s see what it is. Or admit that you’re just posturing.

ROFL! Read it three times! That’s funny.:rofl:


#211

Quran do not conflict with Jesus and Gospels. The problems arise from misinterpretations through which new doctrines formed. For intsance Gospels do not say Jesus died on cross or God incarnated. All these misinterpretations come from strained reading. Though Gospels are not direct revelation but life and words form Jesus(that could be revelation) were narrated so we can respect. But other parts were writen later especially by Paul who was enemy of Jesus and followers.

So if someone say that Quran and Bible(Jesus) conflict with each others so that is an injury. Jesus was true and Muhammad was true. Bu we people unfortunately are not true and good usually.


#212

Oh, I don’t know, I suspect someone who DENIES that the Gospels clearly say that Jesus DIED on the cross must be doing his or her own straining and misinterpreting of the readings.

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Luke 23:46
Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

Luke 23:53
Then he took it [Jesus’ dead body] down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a tomb cut in stone, where no one had ever yet been laid.

Mark 15:37
And Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last.

John 19:30
When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Mark 15:39
And when the centurion, who stood facing him, saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God.

Matthew 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

Romans 5:10
"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

1 Cor. 15:3
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.

Phil. 2:8
"And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

These are just a sampling. There are dozens if not hundreds more references to Jesus’ death AND Resurrection, which I assume all imply he was incarnated in human flesh.

One need not strain to read about Jesus’ death, that conclusion is implicit in all of the Gospels. It literally jumps out at you from the pages and grabs you by the collar. No straining necessary. The very heart of the message of the “Good News” (the Gospel) is grounded in that fact.


#213

The Quran confirms the Bible indeed and backs it up in multiple verses. I do believe that Mohamed did get revelations but I also believe he started making up stuff along the way to suit him and maybe the Quran was reveleaed to him by another force which is not God to mislead all while even that force couldn’t hide the truth because the Quran puts Mary and Jesus on a higher pedestal that Mohamed. God made them both born without sin . I am ex Muslim who is now becoming catholic. I believe God led my readings and gave me the will to seek the truth. God has allowed clues in the Quran to lead people back to him for those who would pay attention. Mohamed died the same way he said God would punish him of he was a false prophet. My lord Jesus is alive. If we all agree on that I rest mundo case on which one is true. In the Quran God calls Jesus “ the word of God” and “ Spirit of God” and also Christ. You tell me who should I follow? Btw the best explanation of the Trinity I found comes from the Quran. I converted to Christianity after reading the Quran. Aleluya!!


#214

Jesus has a place in the Koran, but only because he knows his place. His role is to remove the main obstacle to Muhammad’s claim of prophethood. Who better than Jesus to renounce Jesus’ claim to Sonship and thereby clear the way for Muhammad to be the seal of the prophets?

But, in stripping Jesus of his divinity, Muhammad also managed to strip him of his humanity. The Jesus of the Koran is simply not an interesting person. Indeed he hardly qualifies as a person. He seems more like a disembodied voice.

When Christians hear that Jesus is in the Koran, they assume that he must be someone like the Jesus of the Gospels. Thus they can reassure themselves that although Muslims don’t accept Christ’s divinity, they will at least become familiar with his life. Anyone who bothers to read the Koran, however, will be quickly disabused of that notion. There is no life of Jesus in the Koran. There is no slightly altered version of the gospel story. Indeed, there is no story at all—just a few brief appearances in order to make the point that Jesus is only a man, not the Son of God.

This abbreviated treatment of Jesus in the Koran is matched by a diminished view of the human person. In Islam, man is little more than a slave of Allah. He can achieve paradise, but paradise is essentially a heavenly harem. According to the Christian vision, man’s destiny is union with God. According to the Islamic vision, man’s destiny is to copulate.

In rejecting the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation, Muhammad also rejected the Christian vision of a redeemed humanity. The fact of the Incarnation raised the status of man immeasurably—“no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir” (Gal. 4:7). That’s why Christmas carols are so full of joy. As one hymn reminds us, the night of our Savior’s birth becomes the moment at which “the soul felt its worth.” Thanks to Muhammad’s dismal vision, however, all this is missing in Islam—no “joy to the world,” no “hark the herald angels sing,” no “ding-dong merrily on high.”


#215

The divinity of Jesus is denied by Islam.


#216

Also it is not supported by Gospels.


#217

So, in your mind, Jesus is not Divine … and in your mind, there nothing in the Gospels … the New Testament … that explains that Jesus is God the Son of God. Really???


#218

what does these versus mean to you. what is Thomas saying?

John 20:
…27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28**Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!”** 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed.”…


#219

Thomas was surprised to see Jesus alive. So he spoke in that way. Well Thomas did not say “you are Lord or you are God”. And Thomas was not a prophet to be revealed about that. Jesus would declare that many times. But all times Jesus point Father as God.

Claiming divinity of Jesus by that verse is so invalid. If Jesus were an incarnated God(Indeed God do not incarnate) so that issue would be expressed very clearly in revelation. Otherwise the strained interpretations faked by people could not supersede revelation.


#220

Question: “What did Jesus mean when He said, ‘I and the Father are one’ (John 10:30)?”

Answer: In John 10 Jesus presents Himself as the Good Shepherd and, in a debate with the Jewish leaders, makes the claim, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). It was a bold statement—one His audience found quite audacious—and it reveals much about who Jesus is.

Five key observations can be made concerning this passage. First, Jesus claimed to be one with God in the sense of being equal to Him. Jesus did not claim to be merely a messenger or prophet of God, but of equal power with God.

Second, His audience understood that Jesus was claiming equality with God the Father. In verse 31, “The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.” Why? Blasphemy was a crime punishable by death according to the Jewish Law. When Jesus asked why they were planning to kill Him, they answered, “For blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God” (John 10:33). If Jesus had been lying or deceived, His statement would have been blasphemous. In fact, the only way His words were not blasphemy is if Jesus was telling the truth about His equality with God.

Third, Jesus referred to Himself as God’s Son and to God as His Father (John 10:36–37). He used Psalm 82:6 to show that the Messiah has the right to claim the title “Son of God.”

Fourth, Jesus claimed that that Father sent Him: “the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world” (John 10:36). In this statement, Jesus claimed preexistence in the Father’s presence. No biblical prophet had ever made such a claim before; yet Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham (John 8:58).

Fifth, Jesus only stated that the Jews did not believe Him; He never said they misunderstood His claim to be God. John 10:38 notes, “Even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Jesus was not correcting a misunderstanding. They understood what He said perfectly. He was correcting their willful rejection of Him.

Colossians 1:16–17 affirms Jesus’ same teaching: “In him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” John 1:1 explicitly notes that Jesus was both with God in the beginning and was God.

In summary, Jesus claimed to be one with the Father as part of a larger argument to note that He had existed from eternity past, lived in perfect oneness with the Father, held the same power as God, and was sent by God the Father’s authority. Unfortunately, He was rejected as divine by the Jewish leaders. Jesus’ claim to have equal power as the Father was not blasphemy. It was the plain truth.

Recommended Resource: Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll

Related Topics:

What did Jesus mean when He said, “I am the Resurrection and the Life” (John 11:25)?

What did Jesus mean when He said, “I am the True Vine” (John 15:1)?


#221

then why didn’t Jesus, if only a prophet, correct him instead of confirming his statement?


#222

You see, unfortunately Islam and Christianity there were frequently at wars.
#armenia #genocide #holocaust #armeniangenocide #genocidearmenian #history #armenians

What is the “Сross of Christ” or " Christian faith in the Incarnation" I found out by beginning to read the above-mentioned multi-volume book “British Documents on Ottoman Armenians”.
https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/british-documents-ottoman-armenians-1895/
It so happened that Christians Armenians (also Greeks, Assyrians) lived in the territory of the Ottoman Empire.
We in the Christian countries do not understand what price they paid, and what kind of cross was carried for their faith, for their theology the Christians-Armenians.
Armenians often used to live in a state of chronic terror , could not sleep soundly at night because of fears the nocturnal attacks of the robbers.
Burned monasteries, women and children have been subjected to a barbarous treatment, revolting to humanity. The houses, villages were destroyed, and all Armenians possessed pillaged. Enemies some times plundered and killed at their pleasure, and any Christian who dared to deny them any thing, he was sure to loose his life and property.
Cattles, sheep’s, gold were plundered.
In some areas of the empire, the Armenians implored permission to sell, and received permits only on consenting to double or treble the tax.
Similar treatment towards the Christians we are witnessing today in some countries of the Middle East.
In case with Armenians , the same as today on Middle East, Christians had superior intelligence over the Mahometan races.
In their hands was the meaningfully capital and commerce, because they were industrial and frugal people, prosperous bankers, merchants, the agents of wealthy families. The people who used to enrich Ottoman treasury, the wealth of the country were persecuted for their faith.
In addition to theology, in reality, the real reasons for the persecution of Christians were envy and the desire to enrich themselves with their wealth.Reading that book, I found out that the tragedy of the Armenian Christians was not a single tragic event, but many years of persecution, robberies, deportations, and murders.
Ugur Ungor, the Turkish historian, also mentions that one of the reasons for the persecution of Christians, (the reason which was hushed up) -the desire to enrich themselves with their property.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P_WDJwmxFhY&feature=youtu.be
Unfortunately, today the story is repeated, (exactly the same, according to the plot of atrocities) and the fate of Christians in the Middle East, often similar to that fate - the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians in the Ottoman Empire.
The question is whether the Muslims are ready for dialogue and co-existence.
This issue is very important in the background of political revival of Islam.


#223

The explorers of Armenian Holocaust(genocide) have noticed, the ottoman empire was built on Armenian, Greek, Assyrian territories and many other countries as a result of thousands of mass murders. The ottoman empire existed only after the invasion of other countries, the mass murder of the rightful owners, and the invasion of those territories. The Armenians were in their territories invaded by muslims and subjected to unimaginable suffering, as he wrote for posterity, Sir Henry Morgenthau, US Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire (1913-1916):
“I am confident that the whole history of the human race does not contain such a terrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant compared to the sufferings of the 1915 Armenian race.”


#224

This is when you do not read the whole Bible. You just made up your answer without any reference of the context, or what this is all about.

If you have read the Gospel well, unlike what you are thinking, Thomas did not exclaimed surprise, “hey, dude, goodness, I thought you were dead. I am so surprised to see you!.”

No, he did not mean it that way. He was told already by the other apostles that they had seen Jesus, meaning that he had risen from the dead. This is big because it means that what Jesus had said before hand came to pass - that he would be raised from the dead on the third day. They couldn’t understand that then but when they saw him after being buried, then what he had said made sense.

So that is the context. Thomas did not believe that Jesus had risen because if Jesus did, then certainly he is no mere man but God. While the other apostles already believed Jesus is God by seeing him alive after being buried, Thomas did not.

Thus when Thomas saw him, what do you expect? He is affirming what Jesus is, that “you are my Lord and my God,” not “my God, you are here, I am so surprised.”

Even in the minimum should he is surprised to see Jesus as you said, which is not in the context, it would still showed that Jesus was alive, after being dead and buried.

Islam has nothing about this; you only have to make up things which are not in the Bible, and which anyone can say.


#225

The problem is that no matter how many verses are produced where Jesus claims in unambiguous terms his divinity, you won’t accept them as “valid.”

Similarly, you deny Jesus died on the cross, and yet in Jesus’ own words…

…for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, “The Son of man will be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him; and when he is killed, after three days he will rise.” (Mark 9:31)


#226

Yes. Jesus was informed about case. But Jesus prayed Father(God) to be saved. And we learn from Quran that pray had been accepted .

Here there is another issue that Jesus “pray”. A god do not need to pray. And that doctrine “Jesus sacrificed Himself for sins of people by His will” is not true. Because Jesus knelt and lay down to be saved. I think a god do not behave in that manner! weakness and inability god!

32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray.

33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. Mark:14


#227

No he didn’t, he prayed that God’s will be done.

You also learn from the Qur’an that Jesus was a prophet.

This is what he prophesied…

"…they will kill him; and when he is killed, after three days he will rise.”

So either he was a true prophet and he was killed, or God saved him and he was no prophet at all.

One way or the other, the Qur’an is wrong.


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