Islam or christianity which is true and why do you believe it is


#167

the problem between Islam and Christianity is that they both can’t be true because they say completely different things. Christianity said Christ died on the cross, rose again, and is God. Islam believes an impostor died, Christ was taken up by God, and is only a prophet,

only one can be correct. it doesn’t matter how nice or bad the followers are.


#168

In response to the OP, it was easy for me to determine which is True.

God does not lie, God commands “thou shalt not bear false witness” . God cannot be deceived nor does God deceive.

When Islam claims that lying (deception against Islam’s enemies) is a good virtue acceptable by Allah and their prophet Muhammad who practiced deception recorded in the Quran.

When deception is considered a good virtue practiced in a religion, is what convinced me, The ONE TRUE God has nothing to do with such a practice.


#169

Does loving oneself mean permitting our “self” to do anything we want to do, including morally wrong or pernicious acts?

So why would we assume love means others are permitted to do wrong?

If a teaching or act prescribed by a religion is morally wrong, then it IS morally wrong and we are not obliged to excuse it on the grounds that it is a “religious” belief or that we must “love” those who do wrong things.


#170

The mistake might be attributing to God everything that human beings think, believe or do, especially when those ideas or acts are garbed in religious belief.


#171

It is the same answer as to the question “Did God make a mistake to allow us free will such that we can sin?” No.


#172

As you suggest, we should always strive to do what is right.

God loves all of us and he allows us to sin, we all sin in some way. I am not gay, but if I go around telling gay people about their sins, whilst overlooking my own sins, does that make me a hypocrite. It is tough enough trying to change myself, and I have come to understand it is even tougher trying to change other people.

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, he could do nothing greater. But how did Jesus look at the man who was nailing him to the cross, and still continue to love him as he loves himself!

I believe the Catholic church holds the fullness of truth, but that does not guarantee salvation for me. If I should have salvation, it will be through the grace mercy and forgiveness of our Lord, and not because I deserve it. We can only pray for all people, that they should all have salvation.


#173

Why are we to assume speaking the truth about something is “trying to change” other people?

And for what reason are you trying to change yourself? To make yourself better in some respect and that improvement will significantly improve you and your life, correct?

What if you knew something about yourself that was a danger to you and those around you? Would you honestly and seriously try to change yourself because love for yourself and others would prompt you to change?

Do unto others as you would do to yourself means, to paraphrase your words, continue to love others as you love yourself.

If love for yourself means that you try to change yourself at times, then love for others doesn’t necessarily preclude trying to change them. The relevant difference is that you have control and responsibility for your own behaviour and any changes that need to be made to it. Not so with others. However, that in itself should not prevent you from speaking the truth to them as it shouldn’t prevent you from speaking the truth to yourself. Although it doesn’t mean “trying to change them” because you have no personal responsibility or even the capacity to do so.


#174

Jesus did not claim to be God or the Son of God. He described himself as Son of the Father. The Jews were awaiting Ben Adam, the Son of Man, of whom Jesus spoke in the third person.

Son of God in Hebrew is Ben El which contracts to Be’el as in Be’el-zibub and of course Ba’al (as in Molech) means Lord.

So, if the Jews were awaiting the Ben Adam or Son of Man and someone turns up that people believe is the Son of God which sounds like Ba’al and uses the word Lord of themselves, clearly something has gone awry.

Don’t forget that Son of the Father in Aramaic is Barabbas… and who was released by the crowd when asked ‘Do we save this man or the Son of the Father?’ All of a sudden the resurrection makes sense; it was Jesus who was released, he removed the other’s bloody body and showed up alive… and so does the Islam claim that the ‘Son of the Father’ was an imposter…


#175

Actually, he did all over the Gospels. I refer you to The Case for Jesus by Brant Pitre

There aren’t many instances of Jesus using “Son of the Father.” And his numerous references to Son of Man came straight out of Daniel. His “third person” circumlocutions to the Son of Man were clearly because the Son of Man was a divine person (“coming in the clouds” is reserved for God alone in the OT) and applying the term Son of Man directly to himself would have meant blasphemy charges against him. Jesus coyly used the term (among others) to way lay those charges until his time had come – which he specifically mentioned before going to his death. The fact that he was crucified for blasphemy means the Sanhedrin (aka “The Jews”) understood completely who Jesus was referring to by Son of Man.


#176

Jesus claimed to be God all over the Gospels – in all of them.

Here are a couple of very specific instances (of many). Both of these are from Brant Pitre’s work.

Example 1

Start by comparing Psalm 107 with Mark 4. The parallels are really striking.

Look at Psalm 107 (23-30) and compare this psalm with Mark 4:

Some went down to the sea in ships,
doing business on the mighty waters;
they saw the deeds of the LORD,
his wondrous works in the deep.
For he commanded and raised the stormy wind,
which lifted up the waves of the sea.
They mounted up to heaven, they went down to the depths;
their courage melted away in their calamity;
they reeled and staggered like drunkards,
and were at their wits’ end.
Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble,
and he brought them out from their distress;
he made the storm be still,
and the waves of the sea were hushed.
Then they were glad because they had quiet,
and he brought them to their desired haven.

Who stills the storm in Psalm 107? The LORD. Remember that the word LORD (all caps in the OT) represents the four sacred letters of the Tetragrammaton, the name יהוה. Whenever you see LORD, all-caps, it represents the sacred name YAHWEH. That is what it means. So in Psalm 107, YAHWEH stills the storm.

There are six points here:

  1. There are sailors and ships
  2. There is a stormy wind and waves
  3. The courage of the sailors melts away
  4. So they cry out to YAHWEH
  5. YAHWEH stills the storm
  6. The waves of the sea are quiet

Put those next to Mark 4 and the main parallel is that Jesus in Mark 4 does what YAHWEH does in Psalm 107.

  1. There are disciples in the boat
  2. There are stormy winds and waves
  3. The disciples are afraid
  4. They cry out to Jesus as opposed to YAHWEH
  5. Jesus stills the storm (Notice Jesus doesn’t say, ‘LORD, still the storm.’ He just commands it. He doesn’t ask God, he doesn’t pray, he just commands.)
  6. There was a great calm.

#177

Example 2

When Jesus walks on water, he calls Peter out but Peter starts to sink. Jesus saves him. Remember how those in the boat responded? They worshiped Jesus.

Peter answered him, “Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.” He said, “Come.” So Peter got out of the boat, started walking on the water, and came toward Jesus. But when he noticed the strong wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, “Lord, save me!” Jesus immediately reached out his hand and caught him, saying to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?” When they got into the boat, the wind ceased. And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” (Matt 14:29-33)

Notice that in the third temptation of Jesus, in the very same Gospel, chapter 4, Jesus says to Satan, ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.’

Yet, here Jesus lets the disciples worship him using the very same Greek word εχηγεομαι (transliterated: proskuneo).

This is another example of where Jesus implicitly claims to be God by his actions and words.


#178

To be “saved” means to “be perfected,” to be sanctified, to be made holy. That is not something we accomplish on our own, but that is something which requires God working in us to change us, to perfect us by our cooperation in this life. We won’t be saved completely unless we do “deserve” or merit it in the sense of having attained that necessary state of perfection by cooperating with the grace of God to become perfect.

If others around us are not aware of what God is offering to accomplish in, through and TO them, and they continue to operate under the false assumption that salvation is something that merely happens to them after they die by some miraculous act of God or other without any input from them or any demands upon them in this life, they won’t attain salvation.


#179

Strike one for Islam…


#180

to be fair the same can be said of the bibles creation story. the order changes or appears to change.


#181

John 8

48 The Jews therefore answered, and said to him: Do not we say well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49 Jesus answered:

I have not a devil: but I honour my Father, and you have dishonoured me. 50 But I seek not my own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51 Amen, amen I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever.

52 The Jews therefore said: Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest: If any man keep my word, he shall not taste death for ever. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? and the prophets are dead. Whom dost thou make thyself?

54 Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar. But I do know him, and do keep his word. 56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad.

57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said to them:

Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him. But Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

John 10

28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. 29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. 30 I and the Father are one.

31 The Jews then took up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them:

Many good works I have shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me?

33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them:

Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?


#182

Which is true? Why neither, of course!


#183

Changes or appearance of change are not out and out contradictions.

Some passages are difficult to reconcile, perhaps, but not logically contradictory.


#184

I like the joke our priest said at mass a while ago. A Hindu went up to heaven, and St Peter Said, let me show you around. Over there is where all the Muslims live, we are now going past where all the Lutherans live. Then St Peter said, we are about to go by a long wall, you have to duck down and be quiet as we pass by.
Why? said the Hindu.
St peter said, all the Catholics are behind that wall, and they like to think they are the only ones up here.

I find it hard to believe that Jesus only died for good Catholics. There must be hope for people of all faiths and of no faith.


#185

Catechism

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

335 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21:J.P. Migne, ed., Patroligia Latina (Paris, 1841-1855) 3,1169; De unit.:J.P. Migne, ed., Patroligia Latina (Paris, 1841-1855) 4,509-536.
336 Lumen Gentium 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
337 Lumen Gentium 16; cf. Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum (1965) 3866-3872.


#186

Thank you for raising a good point on Islam. :clap:
You are not going to get an answer to Islamic belief on suffering other than: Allah wills it. That is it. If something happens to you, good or bad, Allah wills it. You cannot question it because you would be questioning Allah and His will, which is objectionable in Islam.


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