Israeli Occupation Unjust, Says Vatican

Israeli Occupation Unjust, Says Vatican

'The occupation is a "political injustice imposed on the Palestinians," the Vatican says, according to extracts quoted by Italy's ANSA news agency.

"The Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories makes daily life difficult for freedom of movement, the economy and social and religious life," the text says.'

[quote="Badaliyyah, post:1, topic:200549"]
Israeli Occupation Unjust, Says Vatican

'The occupation is a "political injustice imposed on the Palestinians," the Vatican says, according to extracts quoted by Italy's ANSA news agency.

"The Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories makes daily life difficult for freedom of movement, the economy and social and religious life," the text says.'

[/quote]

and that, is why I support the church.
:thumbsup:

I’m waiting to see the entire document, but it doesn’t seem that it’s going to be one of those neutral “we regret that there was bloodshed” pronouncements from the Vatican.

I hope the Vatican has the guts to call the Israelis out for what they did.

From the article:

“A VATICAN document leaked overnight calls the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories a “political injustice”.
The occupation is a “political injustice imposed on the Palestinians,” the Vatican says, according to extracts quoted by Italy’s ANSA news agency.”

So, this is a “leaked” portion of “A” Vatican document, as reported by an Italian news agency? I’m not terribly impressed yet.

Before people leap overboard with this, it probably is wise, as Rich said, to see what the Vatican actually does say when it actually says it.

I thought Israel left Gaza.

Only in the sense that its settlers and military returned to Israel. Sort of.

The 'Instrumentum Laboris', or working document, from the Special Assembly for the Middle East Synod of Bishops, in preparation for the Middle Eastern Synod in October, was distributed following the Papal Mass in Nicosia today.

It stated that "the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is creating difficulties in everyday life, inhibiting freedom of movement, the economy and religious life." and went on to note that "certain Christian fundamentalist theologies use sacred scripture to justify Israel's occupation of Palestine, making the position of Christian Arabs an even more sensitive issue." It commented that "current animosity between Arabs and Jews seems to be political in character”, and foreign to any ecclesial discussion.

The document went on to discuss other problems facing Christians in the Middle East, commenting that "Christians are the main victims of the war in Iraq", and described Islamic extremism as "a threat to everyone, Christians and Muslims alike”.

A full summary of the document is available here:
catinfor.com/en/2010/06/06/summary-of-the-instrumentum-laboris/

[quote="Cactus, post:5, topic:200549"]
I thought Israel left Gaza.

[/quote]

Israel did leave Gaza. Hamas sent them thousands of rockets as RSVP's.

As long as Israel is not in the picture, Islamists have nobody to blame for their appalling lack of competence. They need their scapegoat to avoid the painful reality that their ideology sucks big time.

That is the greatest mischaracterization of all. Israel has total control over what goes in and what comes out. It controls the skies over Gaza and the sea. Gaza has only one decrepit seaport and no airport. Israel won’t allow it.

[quote="O_Duirnin, post:7, topic:200549"]

It stated that "the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is creating difficulties in everyday life, inhibiting freedom of movement, the economy and religious life." and went on to note that "certain Christian fundamentalist theologies use sacred scripture to justify Israel's occupation of Palestine, making the position of Christian Arabs an even more sensitive issue." It commented that "current animosity between Arabs and Jews seems to be political in character”, and foreign to any ecclesial discussion.

The document went on to discuss other problems facing Christians in the Middle East, commenting that "Christians are the main victims of the war in Iraq", and described Islamic extremism as "a threat to everyone, Christians and Muslims alike”.

A full summary of the document is available here:
catinfor.com/en/2010/06/06/summary-of-the-instrumentum-laboris/

[/quote]

Well, of course that' s true, just as WWII caused difficulties of all kinds for French, Germans, Dutch, English, Americans, Russians, etc. War is hard on everyone involved. It's also true Palestinian political and religious aggression toward Israel is likewise causing problems for Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.

It may be noted that Israel has no role whatever in Iraq, and yet Christians are persecuted there. The same is true in almost every majority Muslim country.

You are absolutely correct. This document talks about Christians throughout the Middle East, but everyone just focuses in on Gaza. And the reason the Israeli “occupation” of Gaza causes hardship on Christians is because Israel has to defend itself against Hamas, which has an avowed and published aim to destroy Israel. As you say, WWII (and WWI, for that matter) caused hardship on the citizens living in those countries where the war was fought. I don’t see this as any kind of condmention of Israel in any sense of the word.

As the document states:

“Mention is also made of relations with Judaism, “whose theological basis is to be found in Vatican Council II”. Dialogue with the Jews is defined as essential, though “at times not without its obstacles” being affected by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Church hopes that “both peoples may live in peace in a homeland of their own, within secure and internationally recognised borders”. The document firmly rejects anti-Semitism, underlining that “current animosity between Arabs and Jews seems to be political in character” and therefore foreign to any ecclesial discussion. Christians are asked “to bring a spirit of reconciliation, based on justice and equality of the two parties. The Churches in the Middle East also call upon all involved to take into account the distinction between religion and politics”. The Catholic Church’s relations with Muslims also have their foundation in Vatican Council II. … “Often relations between Christians and Muslims are difficult, because Muslims make no distinction between religion and politics – the document states – thereby relegating Christians to the precarious position of being considered non-citizens, despite the fact that they were citizens of their countries long before the rise of Islam.”

The Church is definitely not blaming Israel as such, and seems to state that Christians in Muslim countries are in much dire straits than in Gaza.

[quote="gnjsdad, post:9, topic:200549"]
That is the greatest mischaracterization of all. Israel has total control over what goes in and what comes out. It controls the skies over Gaza and the sea. Gaza has only one decrepit seaport and no airport. Israel won't allow it.

[/quote]

The same argument could be made that the U.S. "occupies" Cuba, because some of the same things could be said in that situation. But the U.S. does not "occupy" Cuba. Nor does Israel "occupy" Gaza. Hamas wanted to rule Gaza, and so now it does. Israel, however, will not allow Hamas to bring whatever it wants into Gaza. It may be expected to continue that until such time as Gaza, under some regime or other, decides that it wants peace with Israel.

Of course, three things stand in the way of that. First is Iran, which obviously wants to play an extraordinarily dangerous game in pursuit of its intended dominance of the Middle East. Second is jihadi Sunni Islamism, with Wahabbist support. Another is the fact that there are seriously competing local Arab factions with their own gunmen and sources of support. A current focus is Israel, but there is no particular reason to expect the area to be peaceful, even if Israel wasn't there, and good reason to think it would not be.

Iran understands that whichever power is responsible for defeating Israel will be crowned the victor of the Islamic world. they take their dreams of Shia being triumphant under the rule of the hidden imam totally seriously.

In point of fact, the population of the whole region, from Egypt to Turkey and Saudi Arabia and all points beyond have become so propagandized into seeing the Jew as Satanic that if a country were to be victorious in a battle against Israel, the Shiite vision of Islam will gain a lot of headway through such a success. It would be a tidal wave of support, if the Iranians could only pull it off.

This is one alluring fruit for them right in the centre of their garden.

The same argument could be made that the U.S. “occupies” Cuba, because some of the same things could be said in that situation. But the U.S. does not “occupy” Cuba. Nor does Israel “occupy” Gaza. Hamas wanted to rule Gaza, and so now it does. Israel, however, will not allow Hamas to bring whatever it wants into Gaza. It may be expected to continue that until such time as Gaza, under some regime or other, decides that it wants peace with Israel.

The United States doesn’t stop foreign ships from entering Cuba. We don’t control Cuba’s air space. The Cubans are free to trade with anyone-but us. There’s a big difference between an embargo and a blockade.

Look the facts are that the Israeli occupation IS unjust, and I’m tired of how people ignore the injustices that the Palestinians face. And they have faced them from the very beginning. Take Gaza out of the picture and we can talk about the West Bank. And the real facts that Israel doesn’t want to give those people citizenship, but they with their settlements are making a Palestinian state impossible. And if you want to talk about the Palestinians terrorism I think we can point out that before suicide bombing becamse really vogue, there was the occupation. The Palestinian terrorism isn’t right, but neither is the Israeli’s state terrorism.

[quote="bekalc, post:14, topic:200549"]
The United States doesn't stop foreign ships from entering Cuba. We don't control Cuba's air space. The Cubans are free to trade with anyone-but us. There's a big difference between an embargo and a blockade.

Look the facts are that the Israeli occupation IS unjust, and I'm tired of how people ignore the injustices that the Palestinians face. And they have faced them from the very beginning. Take Gaza out of the picture and we can talk about the West Bank. And the real facts that Israel doesn't want to give those people citizenship, but they with their settlements are making a Palestinian state impossible. And if you want to talk about the Palestinians terrorism I think we can point out that before suicide bombing becamse really vogue, there was the occupation. The Palestinian terrorism isn't right, but neither is the Israeli's state terrorism.

[/quote]

You keep saying that you're not anti-Israel, but your posts seem to state just the opposite. What "terrorism" is Israel guilty of? Do they send bombs over to Palestine? Do they go in there and blow up buses, restaurants, etc? Do they have a stated aim of wiping Palestine off the map? Or are the Israelis just defending themselves against Palestinians who do these these things?

Operation Cast Lead qualifies as an act of state terrorism. This operation killed 1,400 civilians, nearly half of them children. In its wake, Israel refuses to allow the people of Gaza to rebuild.

[quote=Brooklyn]Do they go in there and blow up buses, restaurants, etc?
[/quote]

Uh, yes they do. When they want to inflict mass destruction on a civilian population, they use their jets, tanks, APCs, and helicopters. When they see fit to limit their activities to more local confines, they engage in so called “targeted assassinations”. Both completely violations of international law. No need to train hapless “suicide bombers” when you have such military capabilities.

[quote=Brooklyn] Do they have a stated aim of wiping Palestine off the map? Or are the Israelis just defending themselves against Palestinians who do these these things?
[/quote]

Do they have such a “stated aim”? No, not explicitly. But it’s clear that Israeli policy now is one of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians off their land and taking it for themselves. The West Bank, East Jerusalem, and even Gaza are targets.

It is impossible to engage in military action in an over-populated area like Gaza without their being civilian casualties. Hamas methods ensure that civilian casualties will be maximized by firing rockets from areas where the desirable 'victims' will be.

[quote="gnjsdad, post:16, topic:200549"]
Operation Cast Lead qualifies as an act of state terrorism. This operation killed 1,400 civilians, nearly half of them children. In its wake, Israel refuses to allow the people of Gaza to rebuild.

Uh, yes they do. When they want to inflict mass destruction on a civilian population, they use their jets, tanks, APCs, and helicopters. When they see fit to limit their activities to more local confines, they engage in so called "targeted assassinations". Both completely violations of international law. No need to train hapless "suicide bombers" when you have such military capabilities.

Do they have such a "stated aim"? No, not explicitly. But it's clear that Israeli policy now is one of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians off their land and taking it for themselves. The West Bank, East Jerusalem, and even Gaza are targets.

[/quote]

And whose fault is it that civilians are killed in Gaza?

"As Israel persists in its military efforts – by ground, air and sea – to protect its citizens from deadly Hamas rockets, and as protests against Israel increase around the world, the success of the abominable Hamas double war crime strategy becomes evident. The strategy is as simple as it is cynical: provoke Israel by playing Russian roulette with its children, firing rockets at kindergartens, playgrounds and hospitals; hide behind its own civilians when firing at Israeli civilians; refuse to build bunkers for its own civilians; have the TV cameras ready to transmit every image of dead Palestinians, especially children; exaggerate the number of civilians killed by including as "children" Hamas fighters who are under 18, and as "women", female terrorists.

Hamas itself has a name for this. They call it "the CNN strategy" (this is not to criticize CNN or any other objective news source for doing its job; it is to criticise Hamas for exploiting the freedom of press, which it forbids in Gaza). The CNN strategy is working because decent people all over the world are naturally sickened by images of dead and injured children. When they see such images repeatedly flashed across TV screens, they tend to react emotionally.

Rather than asking why these children are dying and who is to blame for putting them in harm's way, the average viewer, regardless of their political or ideological perspective, wants to see the killing stopped. They blame those whose weapons directly caused the deaths, rather than those who provoked the violence by deliberately targeting civilians. They forget the usual rules of morality and law. For example, when a murderer takes a hostage and fires from behind his human shield, and a policeman, in an effort to stop the shooting accidentally kills the hostage, the law of every country holds the hostage taker guilty of murder – even though the policeman fired the fatal shot. The same is true of the law of war. The use of human shields, in the way Hamas uses the civilian population of Gaza, is a war crime, as is its firing of rockets at Israeli civilians. Every human shield that is killed by Israeli self-defence measures is the responsibility of Hamas, but you wouldn't know that from watching the media coverage. "

guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/08/hamas-dershowitz-israel-gaza

Israel is not the war criminal here - it is Hamas.

Critics of Israel do not seem to be concerned in the slightest that Hamas has chosen to fight its battles from the schoolyards and the playgrounds of their own children. One can only conclude that it is not humanitarian concerns that motivate these critics, but that they are only interested in the de-legitimization and the eventual dismantlement of Israel as a Jewish state.

They all tend to have their Helen Thomas moments eventually, and this all becomes very clear.

If humanitarianism and international law actually meant anything, the first ones to be called out as war criminals by ME critics, and the the first ones to be brought before these tribunals would have to be the leaders of Hamas. The fact that firing rockets from behind baby strollers is a *crime against the humanity of their own peopl*e makes their actions all the more criminal.
CNN and the MSM— and even the Vatican as per topic— have their own responsibility to the truth as it pertains to the CNN effect.

There has to be a difference between witnessing truth and being a pawns of these masters in the black arts of terrorism.

[quote="gnjsdad, post:16, topic:200549"]
Operation Cast Lead qualifies as an act of state terrorism. This operation killed 1,400 civilians, nearly half of them children. In its wake, Israel refuses to allow the people of Gaza to rebuild.

Uh, yes they do. When they want to inflict mass destruction on a civilian population, they use their jets, tanks, APCs, and helicopters. When they see fit to limit their activities to more local confines, they engage in so called "targeted assassinations". Both completely violations of international law. No need to train hapless "suicide bombers" when you have such military capabilities.

Do they have such a "stated aim"? No, not explicitly. But it's clear that Israeli policy now is one of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians off their land and taking it for themselves. The West Bank, East Jerusalem, and even Gaza are targets.

[/quote]

Do you believe The State of israel has a right to exist? If so what is your proposed solution to the problems in the area?

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