Israeli Occupation Unjust, Says Vatican

If, by the state of Israel you mean the Israel that was established in 1948 by UN mandate and the UN recognized borders that existed in 1967 prior to the Six Day War, then yes, that Israel has the right to exist.

Of course, one big problem is that Israel doesn’t seem to want that Israel any more. It wants acceptance of a right to exist on terms dictated by itself only. It has never formally recognized the 1967 borders itself. So maybe you ought to say which Israel has a right to exist.

[quote=estesbob]If so what is your proposed solution to the problems in the area?
[/quote]

The 2-state solution as proposed by the UN is my proposed solution. However, that unfortuantely is becoming less and less likely as time goes by.

[quote="gnjsdad, post:21, topic:200549"]
If, by the state of Israel you mean the Israel that was established in 1948 by UN mandate and the UN recognized borders that existed in 1967 prior to the Six Day War, then yes, that Israel has the right to exist.

Of course, one big problem is that Israel doesn't seem to want that Israel any more. It wants acceptance of a right to exist on terms dictated by itself only. It has never formally recognized the 1967 borders itself. So maybe you ought to say which Israel has a right to exist.

The 2-state solution as proposed by the UN is my proposed solution. However, that unfortuantely is becoming less and less likely as time goes by.

[/quote]

The Israelis turned both the west bank and the gaza strip over to palestinian control-all they got for it is suicide bombings and rocket attacks. A good start would be for the Palestinians and the surrounding countries to acknowledge they have a right to exist. barring that no peace is possible.

Oh, you gotta love this one. Trying to sound like, yes, of course, Israel has a right to exist, but not really. I think this is called talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I think you answered this question a lot better than you think you did.

I just wonder how people would react if the situation was reversed? :whistle:

[quote="Brooklyn, post:23, topic:200549"]
Oh, you gotta love this one. Trying to sound like, yes, of course, Israel has a right to exist, but not really. I think this is called talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I think you answered this question a lot better than you think you did.

[/quote]

Why don't you stick to the issue instead of making personal attacks?

I've told you which Israel I said has a right to exist. Which Israel do you support?

The Israel of 1948 to 1967 which exists as a homeland for the Jews, or the expansionist, neo-colonial Israel which exists today? Or is there another one? Why don't you tell us so we can have a reasonable discussion?

[quote="Brooklyn, post:23, topic:200549"]
Oh, you gotta love this one. Trying to sound like, yes, of course, Israel has a right to exist, but not really. I think this is called talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I think you answered this question a lot better than you think you did.

[/quote]

:D

That is the position of the left for sure. Israel has a right to exist on the terms other dictate for it, until it becomes de-legitimized out of even being able to defend itself, and therefore right out of existence.

In the meantime Iran gets closer to getting the arms that it openly muses about using against Israel, and the bleeding heart Christians of the left keep whistling their happy tune.

Don't worry, be happy.:)

[quote="gnjsdad, post:25, topic:200549"]
Why don't you stick to the issue instead of making personal attacks?

I've told you which Israel I said has a right to exist. Which Israel do you support?

The Israel of 1948 to 1967 which exists as a homeland for the Jews, or the expansionist, neo-colonial Israel which exists today? Or is there another one? Why don't you tell us so we can have a reasonable discussion?

[/quote]

I am only aware of one country called Israel. You are talking in doublespeak. That makes it very difficult to have a "reasonable discussion."

[quote="Yellow_Belle, post:6, topic:200549"]
Only in the sense that its settlers and military returned to Israel. Sort of.

[/quote]

Uhm....yes, that's pretty much what defines "end of Israeli presence in Gaza".... Unless you have some Newspeak definition the rest of us don't know about?
"Freedom is slavery".....

How people would react if they couldn’t put their kids on schoolbusses, go to a cafe, discoteque, supermarket, etc, without fearing if some psycho bred by a culture obsessed with death decided to pick that day to blow himself up and take as many innocents with him as he could?
How people would react if they had been under constant missile fire for 5 years now, because they reached a hand out in peace?

I know the answer: A lot LESS restrained than Israel, that’s for sure. :whistle:

[quote="LutheranDK, post:29, topic:200549"]
How people would react if they couldn't put their kids on schoolbusses, go to a cafe, discoteque, supermarket, etc, without fearing if some psycho bred by a culture obsessed with death decided to pick that day to blow himself up and take as many innocents with him as he could?
How people would react if they had been under constant missile fire for 5 years now, because they reached a hand out in peace?

I know the answer: A lot LESS restrained than Israel, that's for sure. :whistle:

[/quote]

It must be understood CLEALY that no one I have encountered here or anywhere excuses or attempts to justify the tactics you are describing. You act as if those who are critical of Israel are somehow sympathetic to its emenies when they use terrorist tactics.

[quote="gnjsdad, post:30, topic:200549"]
It must be understood CLEALY that no one I have encountered here or anywhere excuses or attempts to justify the tactics you are describing. You act as if those who are critical of Israel are somehow sympathetic to its emenies when they use terrorist tactics.

[/quote]

if that's not the case, then it's funny how they excuse the Arab terrorists every....single....time they strike.
If it walks like a duck....and it quacks like a duck...

[quote="LutheranDK, post:31, topic:200549"]
if that's not the case, then it's funny how they excuse the Arab terrorists every....single....time they strike.
If it walks like a duck....and it quacks like a duck...

[/quote]







You must mean like what happened at Marmora? Internatiol water no less....:rolleyes: Yes, Viriginia, there are some Israeli terrorists no different than there are Arab terrorists....

[quote="Shoshana, post:32, topic:200549"]




You must mean like what happened at Marmora? Internatiol water no less....:rolleyes:

[/quote]

How many times do I have to repeat it: A ship that attempts to run a blockade is fair game. It can, as far as I know, even be sunk. The Israelis boarded it instead.

[quote="LutheranDK, post:31, topic:200549"]
if that's not the case, then it's funny how they excuse the Arab terrorists every....single....time they strike.
If it walks like a duck....and it quacks like a duck...

[/quote]

There is a thread about the Taliban hanging a 7 year that highlights this. The standard reaction from the Palestinian apologists was "well the Jews are as bad if not worse"

[quote="Shoshana, post:32, topic:200549"]

You must mean like what happened at Marmora? Internatiol water no less....:rolleyes: Yes, Viriginia, there are some Israeli terrorists no different than there are Arab terrorists....

[/quote]

They have been stopping ships for three years and will continue to stop them unitl the Palestinians put peace before hatred of Jews. Or as Golda Meir put it in reaction to suicide bombings "There will be peace when they start loving their children more than they hate ours"







Have they been stopping them in international waters?

Doesn’t matter if you are conducting a blockade and the ship states its destination is within the blockaded zone. We stopped the Russian ships in international waters during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Anyway, isn’t this thread should be about the occupation? We have a number of threads on the blockade already.

[quote="Shoshana, post:36, topic:200549"]

Have they been stopping them in international waters?

[/quote]

Yes. The procedure for goods being shipped into the Gaza strip is for the ships to dock at an Israeli port where the goods are inspected to make sure there are no arms and they are then trucked into Gaza.

Had the Flotilla followed these procedures the alleged humanitarian goods would now be in Gaza.

[quote="estesbob, post:38, topic:200549"]

Had the Flotilla followed these procedures the alleged humanitarian goods would now be in Gaza.

[/quote]

I see. The "alleged" humanitarian goods....wonderful...:rolleyes:

[quote="Cactus, post:5, topic:200549"]
I thought Israel left Gaza.

[/quote]

Following the withdrawal, Israel still controlled Gaza's airspace and territorial waters (now under naval blockade), and the borders with the Green Line (i.e. Israel) and Egypt were mostly closed. So Israel is still legally an Occupying Power due to this level of control. There is also still, obviously, a state of armed conflict between Israel and Hamas (and other fighters) in Gaza, and a naval blockade is legally an act of war (as is Hamas or others firing rockets).

In the absence of a viable Palestinian state or one-state solution, Gazans remain stateless: i.e. citizens of no recognised state. and the Hamas coup traded corrupt Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority executive/Hamas legislative rule (more-or-less elected) and the previous Israeli military dictatorship (which is what long-term occupation of neighbouring peoples you won't give the vote or self-determination is).

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