Issue with a Visiting Priest


#1

Okay, here's a brainbuster (maybe).

Our parish has had a priest come by recently to celebrate Mass Sunday Mornings. The problem is with the Eucharistic Prayer. He will often say cup instead of chalice during the consecration, and he will actually break the Host at the words of the Consecration.

So who would I talk to about this? Should I go to the bishop of his diocese, the bishop of my diocese, the deacons who run the parish?

And, for further discussion, say I didn't know which diocese he came from and if he only visited for one Mass. Who would I talk to then?


#2

[quote="smndtupidisaftr, post:1, topic:300492"]
Okay, here's a brainbuster (maybe).

Our parish has had a priest come by recently to celebrate Mass Sunday Mornings. The problem is with the Eucharistic Prayer. He will often say cup instead of chalice during the consecration, and he will actually break the Host at the words of the Consecration.

So who would I talk to about this? Should I go to the bishop of his diocese, the bishop of my diocese, the deacons who run the parish?

And, for further discussion, say I didn't know which diocese he came from and if he only visited for one Mass. Who would I talk to then?

[/quote]

Instead of bothering the Bishop, why don't you just kindly mention to the priest, in casual conversation, that it's been almost a year since the revisions in the Liturgy and so far, you think everyone's got it down pretty well. You could then say it no longer sounds foreign to hear "chalice" instead of "cup". Chances are, he's still reverting back on accident, since you said this isn't every time. Give the poor guy a break. Too often on here I read posts from people crying "Liturgical Abuse, so let's go tattle to the Bishop" over every little thing, instead of kindly and charitably addressing it with the priest themselves first. Don't be one of them- bring up your concern with directly with your priest.


#3

But what about the other issue, which has never been allowed?


#4

[quote="smndtupidisaftr, post:1, topic:300492"]
Okay, here's a brainbuster (maybe).

Our parish has had a priest come by recently to celebrate Mass Sunday Mornings. The problem is with the Eucharistic Prayer. He will often say cup instead of chalice during the consecration, and he will actually break the Host at the words of the Consecration.

So who would I talk to about this? Should I go to the bishop of his diocese, the bishop of my diocese, the deacons who run the parish?

And, for further discussion, say I didn't know which diocese he came from and if he only visited for one Mass. Who would I talk to then?

[/quote]

Please forgive me for not being Roman Catholic so I don't quite understand the importance here when I say surely there are bigger issues around and this one, you are simply going to have to just swallow this one. To me its in line with complaining about the colour of shoes or trousers he may be wearing? Which for some of you seems important but others of you realises there are worse things priests can fail to do. Least he says cup rather than mug? don't you think? But at end of it does it make the service any less valid? And would goblet be as wrong as cup? for you etc. Forgivenss I think can be perhaps exercised here quite well?

If you really have issue with it then take it up with your church wardens and the PCC first I presume Roman Catholics have such 'bodies'. And if he only visited one Mass, then surely you can let him be if no major sin has been committed?


#5

[quote="smndtupidisaftr, post:3, topic:300492"]
But what about the other issue, which has never been allowed?

[/quote]

This is what makes me suspicious. The wording I can somewhat understand. However, he likely knows this isn't a prescribed rubric.


#6

Sometimes its better to worry about ourselves as the recipient, than to be so critical of the one giving, because our own hearts are more likely to invalidate a sacrament than the inattentiveness of he who is adminstering the sacrament.


#7

[quote="englishredrose, post:4, topic:300492"]
Please forgive me for not being Roman Catholic so I don't quite understand the importance here when I say surely there are bigger issues around and this one, you are simply going to have to just swallow this one. To me its in line with complaining about the colour of shoes or trousers he may be wearing? Which for some of you seems important but others of you realises there are worse things priests can fail to do. Least he says cup rather than mug? don't you think? But at end of it does it make the service any less valid? And would goblet be as wrong as cup? for you etc. Forgivenss I think can be perhaps exercised here quite well?

If you really have issue with it then take it up with your church wardens and the PCC first I presume Roman Catholics have such 'bodies'. And if he only visited one Mass, then surely you can let him be if no major sin has been committed?

[/quote]

No offense here but you are out of your expertise here. Words of institution are most critical in the Mass. Where the validity and licitness of the Mass are in question it is of utmost importance.

I would say this is more of a mistake than an intentional miss-read of the text. Speak with him, or the pastor, or in this case the deacons in charge of the parish. Then possibly the bishop, chances are this was a mistake on the part of the priest. Some of the retired priests are still struggling with the changed wording.


#8

[quote="smndtupidisaftr, post:1, topic:300492"]
Okay, here's a brainbuster (maybe).

Our parish has had a priest come by recently to celebrate Mass Sunday Mornings. The problem is with the Eucharistic Prayer. He will often say cup instead of chalice during the consecration, and he will actually break the Host at the words of the Consecration.

So who would I talk to about this? Should I go to the bishop of his diocese, the bishop of my diocese, the deacons who run the parish?

And, for further discussion, say I didn't know which diocese he came from and if he only visited for one Mass. Who would I talk to then?

[/quote]

I think I understand your concerns. As the Mass is the re-presentation of Christ's perfect sacrifice on the cross to God the Father for the salvation of mankind and as the Council of Trent said "We must needs confess that no other work can be performed by the faithful so holy and Divine as this tremendous mystery itself," I think the Mass should be performed as perfectly as possible. Indeed, from what I understand, the priest is not suppose to deviate from the rubrics of the Mass, especially during the Eucharistic prayer. However, some priests do.

We have a retired priest at our parish, who when he says the Eucharistic prayer, deviates here and there from the prayer everytime he says Mass and he did this even before the changes last year. But I believe he is saying a valid Mass and he doesn't preach anything contrary to catholic doctrine. So I just basically swallow his deviations. It can be very distracting to me but I offer the distractions up to God thinking that when Christ hung on the cross it certainly wasn't a pleasant experience and he had many detractors speaking ill of him. I'm not saying the priest is speaking ill of Christ. Christ is the principle priest at every Mass and though a priest may be performing his duties imperfectly, if the Mass is valid, Christ offers to God the Father his perfect sacrifice.

It seems to me that intentional deviations from the rubrics of the Mass, if not a sin, is at least an imperfection. But it is not my place to judge the priest for he is a human being like the rest of us. He will have to answer to God as we all will have too. What would be a concern for me that might require some action on my part would be if I thought a priest was not saying a valid Mass or that he was teaching anything contrary to the catholic faith.


#9

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:5, topic:300492"]

This is what makes me suspicious. The wording I can somewhat understand. However, he likely knows this isn't a prescribed rubric.
[/quote]

Actually I'd call it proscribed. First time I saw it was in the early '70s. It's one of those things that still seems to crop up far too often, but usually gets dumped in the "well, it's not so bad so we're not dealing with it" bucket and rarely, if ever, gets addressed. Seems to me that bucket is pretty full. :shrug:


#10

[quote="smndtupidisaftr, post:1, topic:300492"]
Okay, here's a brainbuster (maybe).

Our parish has had a priest come by recently to celebrate Mass Sunday Mornings. The problem is with the Eucharistic Prayer. He will often say cup instead of chalice during the consecration, and he will actually break the Host at the words of the Consecration.

So who would I talk to about this? Should I go to the bishop of his diocese, the bishop of my diocese, the deacons who run the parish?

And, for further discussion, say I didn't know which diocese he came from and if he only visited for one Mass. Who would I talk to then?

[/quote]

Breaking the host at that time is a serious matter. Redemptonis Sacramentum says that it should be corrected "WITH HASTE."

[55.] In some places there has existed an abuse by which the Priest breaks the host at the time of the consecration in the Holy Mass. This abuse is contrary to the tradition of the Church. It is reprobated and is to be corrected with haste.


#11

[quote="malphono, post:9, topic:300492"]
Actually I'd call it proscribed. First time I saw it was in the early '70s. It's one of those things that still seems to crop up far too often, but usually gets dumped in the "well, it's not so bad so we're not dealing with it" bucket and rarely, if ever, gets addressed. Seems to me that bucket is pretty full. :shrug:

[/quote]

Yes, but I just want to point out that my word choice was appropriate since I said "not prescribed." Essentially we are saying the same thing!


#12

[quote="englishredrose, post:4, topic:300492"]
Please forgive me for not being Roman Catholic so I don't quite understand the importance here when I say surely there are bigger issues around and this one, you are simply going to have to just swallow this one. To me its in line with complaining about the colour of shoes or trousers he may be wearing? Which for some of you seems important but others of you realises there are worse things priests can fail to do. Least he says cup rather than mug? don't you think? But at end of it does it make the service any less valid? And would goblet be as wrong as cup? for you etc. Forgivenss I think can be perhaps exercised here quite well?

If you really have issue with it then take it up with your church wardens and the PCC first I presume Roman Catholics have such 'bodies'. And if he only visited one Mass, then surely you can let him be if no major sin has been committed?

[/quote]

You hit the nail right on the head when you said that you didn't understand the importance of this issue. No one here will begrudge you not being a Roman Catholic--at least, I should hope not!--but it is worth noting that it is, in fact a big deal; the consecration of the Eucharist is THE big moment for Catholics. During this prayer, the priest stops using his own words and, acting in persona Christi, speaks Jesus' words at the Last Supper. To say something different is an issue. And while it may not exactly render the sacrament invalid, it may be illicit. That means that it was still real, but illegal, Though, by no means am I an expert, so I'm not quite sure if that's accurate, either.

On the original question: perhaps, though, instead of going directly to the priest and saying, "Hey, I noticed that you're not doing this right," which would likely embarrass him, it may be better perhaps to go to your pastor and mention it, then let him have the conversation. That way, when your pastor brings it up, he can frame it as a professional criticism among colleagues.


#13

[quote="Don_Jackson, post:6, topic:300492"]
Sometimes its better to worry about ourselves as the recipient, than to be so critical of the one giving, because our own hearts are more likely to invalidate a sacrament than the inattentiveness of he who is adminstering the sacrament.

[/quote]

:amen::amen:


#14

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:11, topic:300492"]
Yes, but I just want to point out that my word choice was appropriate since I said "not prescribed." Essentially we are saying the same thing!

[/quote]

Oh yes, quite so. :) I meant to reinforce that, not to suggest otherwise. :)


#15

[quote="Don_Jackson, post:6, topic:300492"]
Sometimes its better to worry about ourselves as the recipient, than to be so critical of the one giving, because our own hearts are more likely to invalidate a sacrament than the inattentiveness of he who is adminstering the sacrament.

[/quote]

???? What is this supposed to mean? That makes no sense.

1) As a person in the pews, my heart can do nothing to invalidate the Mass.

2) A valid Mass is not the final and only goal. You can say a valid Mass by a priest picking up a host off his desk, saying this is my body, doing the same with a bottle of wine, then drinking both. That doesn't mean it was correct, right, or that the priest who did so shouldn't be punished.


#16

=smndtupidisaftr;9844969]Okay, here's a brainbuster (maybe).

Our parish has had a priest come by recently to celebrate Mass Sunday Mornings. The problem is with the Eucharistic Prayer. He will often say cup instead of chalice during the consecration, and he will actually break the Host at the words of the Consecration.

So who would I talk to about this? Should I go to the bishop of his diocese, the bishop of my diocese, the deacons who run the parish?

And, for further discussion, say I didn't know which diocese he came from and if he only visited for one Mass. Who would I talk to then?

A FORMER PASTOR USED TO ASK OCASSIONALY: "WHO DIED AND PUT YOU IN CHARGE?"

While incorrect neither practice voids or invalidates the Eucharist.

If it's a OLDER priest; just pray for him and let it alone.

If however you feel its done my intent 1. TALK to your pastor [or deacon]

I [IMO here] do not think this is sufficiently wrong to take to the level of Bishop:)


#17

[quote="smndtupidisaftr, post:1, topic:300492"]
Okay, here's a brainbuster (maybe).

Our parish has had a priest come by recently to celebrate Mass Sunday Mornings. The problem is with the Eucharistic Prayer. He will often say cup instead of chalice during the consecration, and he will actually break the Host at the words of the Consecration.

So who would I talk to about this? Should I go to the bishop of his diocese, the bishop of my diocese, the deacons who run the parish?

And, for further discussion, say I didn't know which diocese he came from and if he only visited for one Mass. Who would I talk to then?

[/quote]

First you speak to the priest in question - charitably and with respect (and during an appointed time, not when you catch him right before or after Mass)

Then, if he doesn't correct the time whern he breaks the host, or doesn't understand your concerns, you speak to whoever is in charge of your parish directly - the deacon or parish administrator.

Finally, if none of this works - and keep in mind that no one is going to report back to you that the priest went to re-education camp, etc. - you call the your own diocese and speak to the vicar general or the person in charge of your deanery.

If your conversation with the priest doesn't result in changes in his actions during Mass, your next request is for a different priest who does celebrate the Mass correctly.

In the instance where you only see the priest once, best course is simply to pray for him.


#18

[quote="PJM, post:16, topic:300492"]
A FORMER PASTOR USED TO ASK OCASSIONALY: "WHO DIED AND PUT YOU IN CHARGE?"

[/quote]

I don't know. Who died and put this pastor over the level of the rubrics and church documents?

[quote="PJM, post:16, topic:300492"]
While incorrect neither practice voids or invalidates the Eucharist.

If it's a OLDER priest; just pray for him and let it alone.

If however you feel its done my intent 1. TALK to your pastor [or deacon]

I [IMO here] do not think this is sufficiently wrong to take to the level of Bishop:)

[/quote]

Really? Redemptonis Sacramentum said clearly that this practice should be fixed "with haste." If talking to the pastor would not do anything, you should most definitely write the bishop.


#19

[quote="smndtupidisaftr, post:1, topic:300492"]
Okay, here's a brainbuster (maybe).

Our parish has had a priest come by recently to celebrate Mass Sunday Mornings. The problem is with the Eucharistic Prayer. He will often say cup instead of chalice during the consecration, and he will actually break the Host at the words of the Consecration.

So who would I talk to about this? Should I go to the bishop of his diocese, the bishop of my diocese, the deacons who run the parish?

And, for further discussion, say I didn't know which diocese he came from and if he only visited for one Mass. Who would I talk to then?

[/quote]

Bishop, Cardinal... It's a good thing that you want to talk to someone about it. It's important that Jesus and the consecration are respected and done the proper way.


#20

The Mass he celebrates and the Eucharist he consecrates are valid. The rest is not for the concern of the faithful.


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