It is a miracle I may be wrong---


#1

It is a rariTYbut I may have ben wrong about a fact–I was tlaking to a heretic last nite about various things and of course utterly defeated him. However we disagrred ona minor point about the council of Nicea 325—he said that the Council issued a decree concerning the canon of scripture-- I didnt think Nicea did–as I researched it --it does look like he was right–although I cant seem to find the writing–does anyone know? or was it just discussed at the Council and nothing was put officially in writing in terms oF TEACHING-=----I KNOW YOU ALL ARE IN SHOCK THAT I MAY HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN WRONG ABOUT SOMETHING BUT GET OVER IT AND HELP ME OUT


#2

Nicea did not define the Canon of Scripture. The Canon was taught at councils at Hippo and Carthage (but these were not Ecumenical Councils). The Canon was not formally defined until Trent (and Trent simply codefied the same canon that had been accepted for centuries).


#3

that is what I thought --it was Hippo and Carthage but the google search I did on nicea seems to say that they did talk about the Canon–does anyone know???


#4

None on the Scripture: newadvent.org/fathers/3801.htm


#5

marineboy,

The claim is widespread but false. There’s no evidence that Nicea addressed the canon of Scripture at all. All of the scholastic sources whether Protestant or otherwise contradict this claim. I believe the “Constantine started Christianity” theorists are the ones pushing the claim, but it is a myth, worthy of such equal rank in scholastic opinion as the Duh Vinci Code.

CCEL (Calvinist) web page agrees with Catholic sources on this. The Council was about refuting Arius and about when to celebrate Easter. The canons address ecclesiastical discipline.

Historically speaking, we do not have the acts of the council extant. However, "all the collections of canons, whether in Latin or Greek, composed in the fourth and fifth centuries agree in attributing to this Council only the twenty canons, which we possess today. Of these the following is a brief résumé:
[list]
*]Canon 1: On the admission, or support, or expulsion of clerics mutilated by choice or by violence.
*]Canon 2: Rules to be observed for ordination, the avoidance of undue haste, the deposition of those guilty of a grave fault.
*]Canon 3: All members of the clergy are forbidden to dwell with any woman, except a mother, sister, or aunt.
*]Canon 4: Concerning episcopal elections.
*]Canon 5: Concerning the excommunicate.
*]Canon 6: Concerning patriarchs and their jurisdiction.
*]Canon 7: confirms the right of the bishops of Jerusalem to enjoy certain honours.
*]Canon 8: concerns the Novatians.
*]Canon 9: Certain sins known after ordination involve invalidation.
*]Canon 10: Lapsi who have been ordained knowingly or surreptitiously must be excluded as soon as their irregularity is known.
*]Canon 11: Penance to be imposed on apostates of the persecution of Licinius.
*]Canon 12: Penance to be imposed on those who upheld Licinius in his war on the Christians.
*]Canon 13: Indulgence to be granted to excommunicated persons in danger of death.
*]Canon 14: Penance to be imposed on catechumens who had weakened under persecution.
*]Canon 15: Bishops, priests, and deacons are not to pass from one church to another.
*]Canon 16: All clerics are forbidden to leave their church. Formal prohibition for bishops to ordain for their diocese a cleric belonging to another diocese.
*]Canon 17: Clerics are forbidden to lend at interest.
*]Canon 18: recalls to deacons their subordinate position with regard to priests.
*]Canon 19: Rules to be observed with regard to adherents of Paul of Samosata who wished to return to the Church.
*]Canon 20: On Sundays and during the Paschal season prayers should be said standing. " (Catholic Encyclopedia, First Council of Nicea)
[/list]For Protestant historian Philip Schaff’s treatment of Nicea I (Vol XIV of Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, 2nd series, edd. Philip Schaff and Henry Wace), see here:
fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea1.txt


#6

Marineboy, I’m just curious. How did you know this person was a heretic?


#7

how do you think I knew? I asked him–are u a heretic ??–haha he was baptized–and he was a Protestant----I didnt say whether he was a material heretc or a formal one–


#8

Listen kid, watch your sarcasm, it’ll bite you in the end. I don’t think it’s right to call people heretics who hold to heretical beliefs. It’s not their fault that this is what they grew up believing. It’s not only offensive, but a detriment to evangelizing as it pushes people away rather than building a communication between brothers and sisters in Christ.


#9

well tom–i have said this before–its A prudential decision–sometimes it may be appropiate to let someone know the arE in grave danger of going to hell–aNd sometimes it may not be—is IT detrimental?–sometimes, but maybe not at other times—maybe at times it may “wake someone up” YoUR RIGHT ITS NOT tHEIR FAULT THAT THEY WERE BORN INTO THEIR FAITH–BUT CHIEF HOW DO YOU KNOW ITS NOT THEIR FAULT THAT THEY STAY THERE?? IT MAY VERY WELL BE!!–AND IF YOU DONT WARN THEM GOD MAY HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE BUDDY–HE MAY SPIT YOU OUT OF HIS MOUTH—


#10

Dude, calm down! If he is a Protestant unfortunate enough to be born into that state never knowing the truth, then he is not a heretic. He is a schismatic. However, if he knows the truth and chooses not to believe it, then I suppose, he is guilty of heresy. But honestly, if you try and teach him about the truth of the Catholic Church with the same attitude you show us here, I’m not sure I would believe you if I was him. So maybe he is only in schism, not heresy.


#11

Marineboy might be quite blunt, but the Church after all still sees Protestantism in a state of heresy, so in a way he is quite correct.


#12

Sometimes a man can be right and still be very wrong if you catch my drift.


#13

[quote=nucatholic]Sometimes a man can be right and still be very wrong if you catch my drift.
[/quote]

If you’re saying if he should’ve used a better term, I agree with you. Even the Church has, for the most part, been rather quiet about the point on Protestantism as a heresy, and emphasized more now on them as our separated brethren. In other words, the Church is looking for common ground rather than on what separates us, so that we may see one Church again as the way Jesus saw it.


#14

[quote=marineboy]that is what I thought --it was Hippo and Carthage but the google search I did on nicea seems to say that they did talk about the Canon–does anyone know???
[/quote]

There are no known copies of the council of Nicea in existence. They only have what some saints have said about it. I don’t think any saints have said anything about the canon at Nicea.


#15

But the Church does not regard those born into Protestantism as heretics. They are born into it through no fault of their own. The Protestant faith may be heretical, but it’s memebrs are schismatic. Separated.


#16

[quote=marineboy]It is a rariTYbut I may have ben wrong about a fact–I was tlaking to a heretic last nite about various things and of course utterly defeated him. However we disagrred ona minor point about the council of Nicea 325—he said that the Council issued a decree concerning the canon of scripture-- I didnt think Nicea did–as I researched it --it does look like he was right–although I cant seem to find the writing–does anyone know? or was it just discussed at the Council and nothing was put officially in writing in terms oF TEACHING-=----I KNOW YOU ALL ARE IN SHOCK THAT I MAY HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN WRONG ABOUT SOMETHING BUT GET OVER IT AND HELP ME OUT
[/quote]

hahaha


#17

[quote=marineboy]well tom–i have said this before–its A prudential decision–sometimes it may be appropiate to let someone know the arE in grave danger of going to hell–aNd sometimes it may not be—is IT detrimental?–sometimes, but maybe not at other times—maybe at times it may “wake someone up” YoUR RIGHT ITS NOT tHEIR FAULT THAT THEY WERE BORN INTO THEIR FAITH–BUT CHIEF HOW DO YOU KNOW ITS NOT THEIR FAULT THAT THEY STAY THERE?? IT MAY VERY WELL BE!!–AND IF YOU DONT WARN THEM GOD MAY HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE BUDDY–HE MAY SPIT YOU OUT OF HIS MOUTH—
[/quote]

Those who are privileged to share in the fullness of the Church’s riches of revealed wisdom, sacramental power, divinely assured guidance, and blessings of community life cannot pride themselves on having deserved what they possess. Rather they should humbly recognize their chosen position and gratefully live up to the covenant to which they have been called. Otherwise what began as a sign of God’s special favor on earth may end as a witness to his justice in the life to come.

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ315.HTM


#18

Protestanism is still a hersey–period—whetheror not individula Protestants are heretics is another matter—i think they woul still be considered material heretics–BUT WHO CARES ITS A LABEL–THE BOTTOM LINE IS: NOW PEOPLE BANG THIS INTO YOUR HEADS!!! START BAGING THIS DEEP DEEP DEEP IN YOUR HEADS—PROTESTANISM SAVES NO ONE!!!AND STOP SAYING THEY STAY INTHE PROTESTANT “CHURCH” BECAUSE ITS THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN!!! IT MAY BE THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, BUT IT MAY NOT BE EITHER—IF THEY STAY AND THEY SHOULD OTHERWISE KNOW THE TRUTH AND DIE IN THAT STATE THEY GO TO HELL!!!


#19

[quote=jimmy]There are no known copies of the council of Nicea in existence. They only have what some saints have said about it. I don’t think any saints have said anything about the canon at Nicea.
[/quote]

Of all the Acts of this Council, which, it has been maintained, were numerous, only three fragments have reached us: the creed, or symbol, given above; the canons; the synodal decree. Taken from New Advent: newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm Further, look again for the link I posted above.


#20

[quote=marineboy]Protestanism is still a hersey–period—whetheror not individula Protestants are heretics is another matter—i think they woul still be considered material heretics–BUT WHO CARES ITS A LABEL–THE BOTTOM LINE IS: NOW PEOPLE BANG THIS INTO YOUR HEADS!!! START BAGING THIS DEEP DEEP DEEP IN YOUR HEADS—PROTESTANISM SAVES NO ONE!!!AND STOP SAYING THEY STAY INTHE PROTESTANT “CHURCH” BECAUSE ITS THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN!!! IT MAY BE THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, BUT IT MAY NOT BE EITHER—IF THEY STAY AND THEY SHOULD OTHERWISE KNOW THE TRUTH AND DIE IN THAT STATE THEY GO TO HELL!!!
[/quote]

Marineboy, do calm down. You might get suspended for using big fonts and all caps–no no on the net as it’s considered rude and quite disrespectful. As a saying goes, we can disagree without being disagreeable.


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