Yes, you’ve read me backwards. I’m saying they aren’t saved, but do pray to the same God (with flawed understanding).
It seems that Islamic God Allah is a different God than the Catholic God with different rules and a bible
Thanks for the correction. I also wanted to point out I expanded on CCC 841 in post #36 of this thread (as of this writing) in case you are interested and didn’t see it. It has to do with the reference 330 at the end.
Certainly, there are two forms of Islam. A group like ISIS probably serves the devil. There have been “Christian” cults that likely did too.
My question becomes, are you saying everyone prays to the same God but only with flawed understanding? If a person worships a gold calf, is that praying to our same God?
I don’t think that’s the claim at all. It’s that Muslims and Jews specifically pray to the same God with wrong and incomplete, respectively, understandings of Him.
Yes, I know we share the same belief in the Father but I think there is some of the same principle there. Perhaps food for thought but I don’t want to get too far off topic which I guess I already am.
Yes, this. The Abrahamic religions of which Islam is recognized as one.
I had on my reading list St. Augustine’s “On the Trinity” so I thought I’d start it. I’ve seen comments from people that have made me want to read it. It can be found here at New Advent Fathers:
I am not far in but already appreciate the clarity with which he writes about this hard to understand subject. Book 1 is here:
Some of his key points I’ve already encountered are that “the Trinity is the one and only and true God” (Book 1, Sec. 4), and that the three persons are indivisible in one essence. They act together so if the Father acts, so do the Son and Holy Spirit with Him, even though it may seem to us that only the Father does.
My little story about the architects in a post above and i quote here is an effort to show the difference between the acknowledgment of 1 architect vs. 3.
However my story is inadequate because one of the 3 persons is still the same. But God the Father as conceived of as alone is not the same as God the Father as part of the Trinity. That is because He is indivisible with the Son and the Holy Spirit. In my opinion a person not just misunderstands the Father if he or she worships Him alone but conceives of Him in a fundamentally different way than He exists and therefore that God exists. As Augustine says:
…the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible, so work indivisibly. This is also my faith, since it is the Catholic faith (Book 1, Sec 7).
I look forward to reading the rest of Augustine’s “On the Trinity” although it will probably take me a while since it looks like a book-length piece.
Mormans understand God the Father as not being the origin of all reality, as himself having a creator, who himself had a creator, who himself had a creator, and so on. Mormons also believe God the Father started much like us before growing into God, and that humans who are saved will progress and grow until they become like God.
On the other hand, Muslims understand God to be eternal and the creator and origin of all other reality. Us Catholics might have disagreements on who God is personally and his revelation to us, but we both recognize God’s transcendencey and role as the ultimate creator.
Consider a person living in the Americas 1,500 years ago. No Christians or Jews or Muslims have ever come here or taught here, but perhaps this person, through his God-given reason, comes to understand that there must be a personal and eternal creator of all reality and that it’s human nature to praise him. Are we just going to accuse him of believing in another God when he has, by reason, come to understand at least that God is?
God will judge as He will about peoples’ knowlege and worship of Him before Christ came to Earth and whether it is acceptable or not. I don’t know how anyone could worship an inanimate object but some did. At least some Native Americans worshipped multiple Gods and made human sacrifices.
But God has made it clear that if a person has heard of Christ’s sacrifice, they are to believe in Him as a person of God who died in expiation for his or her sins. Knowing God created us is certainly important but not enough.
I can’t read for too long at a time and I’d be interested to know how St Augustine explained the Trinity, in as simple terms as possible? Perhaps later you might inform me please?
There might be people from a thousand denominations who have this belief to some degree. Our disunity has to be a huge sin.
Or that John Doe behaves in different ways according to the situation and mood he is in, and we perceive different aspects of his behavior. He is still the same overall person but neither of us views or understands his complete personality or experiences all the situations that he does.
I am not sure if we are getting off topic, so I wanted to summarize my view of the answer here, being my final words on the subject. I feel terrible for having offended anyone from previous posts. Here goes:
According to Holy Scripture (Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21), according to Sacred Tradition (from Creation until about the 1960’s), and according the good and faithful members of the Magisterium the answer is that the Allah of the Catholics is different and not the allah of our Islamic brothers and sisters in the world.
Well, humans are sinful which is why we need a Savior. I was thinking about that when you mentioned our bombing other people. Not to get into the “just war” question, some sins are very bad. That doesn’t change who God is. You can’t judge God on what humans do.
Very good, the definitive answer IMO. Thanks for the link
Very true - but we are created in the image, likeness and nature of God. So if we could be the person that God intends us to be, we might have a slightly better understanding of God.
There is a new book out called “The Crucifix on Mecca’s Front Porch” by David Pinault. I haven’t read it, but I have ordered it. I heard his interview on EWTN earlier this week and rushed back to my officer and ordered it. It sounds fascinating and may answer many of your questions.
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