Italy's crucifixes in classrooms 'violate rights'

‘Culturally Catholic’ would probably be a more accurate term. Church attendance has been in steep decline, despite the crucifixes and despite an environment full of little churches and wayside shrines in town and country.

It is of no benefit to anyone but atheists.

It’s almost complete indifference to religion that’s winning in Europe, not atheism.

Then we’re back to the question…what damage? If no one cares then any religious icons can, and are, ignored.

It’s almost complete indifference to religion that’s winning in Europe, not atheism.

Which goes to the argument, if the crucifix has no meaning to people, in a religious sense, why sue at all?

Probably because she sees it as Catholic propaganda in the classroom and doesn’t want her children damaged (from her point of view) by it.

Which goes to the argument, if the crucifix has no meaning to people, in a religious sense, why sue at all?

Can’t speak for her but I wouldn’t have wanted my daughters to be faced by a crucifix in the classroom. I admit to being a bit hypocritical about it in some ways (hey, after all, I’m half-Italian) because I’m addicted to taking photos of the often highly adorned outside of Italian churches along with all the rest of the ‘Città Vecchia’ (‘old town’) wherever we are - it’s just pretty but meaningless to me.

CRUCIFIX RULING SEEN AS SEVERING ITALY FROM ROOTS

Prelates Lament Court’s "Ideological Outlook"

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 3, 2009 (Zenit.org).- Italy’s bishops are saying the European Court of Human Rights is guilty of a partial and ideological outlook with its Tuesday decision that crucifixes in public school are a violation of freedom.

The Vatican and the Italian government expressed dismay with Tuesday’s decision and Italian bishops expressed their own perplexity.

The court ruled in favor of an Italian citizen of Finnish origin who complained in 2002 that the state school where her two children studied violated their freedom by displaying crucifixes…"

zenit.org/article-27434?l=english

It’s only a ‘passive symbol’ from a Catholic perspective.

And only an assertive Religious symbol from an atheist perspective?

Look at my entry by ‘Religion:’. I expect it’s also seen as assertive from the point of view of the large proportion of the population who would put ‘not bothered’ alongside ‘Religion:’.

What damage?

Can’t speak for her but I wouldn’t have wanted my daughters to be faced by a crucifix in the classroom. I admit to being a bit hypocritical about it in some ways (hey, after all, I’m half-Italian) because I’m addicted to taking photos of the often highly adorned outside of Italian churches along with all the rest of the ‘Città Vecchia’ (‘old town’) wherever we are - it’s just pretty but meaningless to me.

Well, this is absolutely irrational. :slight_smile:

I don’t know, from her perspective.

Well, this is absolutely irrational. :slight_smile:

I did say that I’m half-Italian.

And come December the will have a president and foreign ministry representing the EU.

A Catholic cardinal spoke out against the Lisbon treaty just before the second referendum in Ireland saying it would infringe on Irish Culture and traditions. The strange thing is Irish voters already voted against the treaty last year but apparently the offer of more jobs in European markets during this massive economic recession was enough to persuade voters away from morals.

Now science the treaty affects The EU in such a big way i wonder why they wouldn’t put it to a euro wide referendum…

What happened the last time Europe became a single power?:hmmm:

It should be pointed out to those getting terribly worked up about the EU that the European Court of Human Rights is an entirely separate organization and, indeed, involves many countries not in the EU.

You’re confusing it with the European Court which is part of the EU setup.

Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao would all be celebrating this grand decision. The eu is starting to become a very bad decision to create. Whats next?

The Lisbon treaty gives the ability to the EU to unite there armed forces if they all agree to it.

Now would the European commission on human rights have any direct control over what this army actually does? If it is an entirely different organization how are they supposed to directly intervene in what there army’s do?

This court by making this decision is infringing on Italian tradition, history and culture. A religious nation such as Italy is losing its ability to display there faith because a commission said secularists have a right to be educated in an environment where they feel comfortable. And yes that is there right but would it not also stand to reason that religious people also have a right to be educated in an environment where they feel comfortable?

mabey they should put it to an italy wide referendum.:whistle:

What article is that then? There’s ‘mutual assistance’ but we’ve had that in Western Europe ever since the establishment of NATO.

Now would the European commission on human rights have any direct control over what this army actually does? If it is an entirely different organization how are they supposed to directly intervene in what there army’s do?

Somehow, I think you’ve missed the point.

This court by making this decision is infringing on Italian tradition, history and culture. A religious nation such as Italy is losing its ability to display there faith because a commission said secularists have a right to be educated in an environment where they feel comfortable.

Good grief, have you ever been to Italy? It’s positively littered with Catholic iconography, they could export half of it and it would still be positively littered with Catholic iconography.

And yes that is there right but would it not also stand to reason that religious people also have a right to be educated in an environment where they feel comfortable?

I’m sure Italian children and teenagers (especially) will manage to survive.

mabey they should put it to an italy wide referendum.:whistle:

Maybe they should have state funded Catholic (and other religiously-oriented) schools, alongside secular schools, like the UK - where they’re very popular, despite the UK’s relative indifference to religion.

Fun fact - crucifixes were originally put in Italian public schools by another horrible dictator: Mussolini.

See, I dunno about this one. I’m ambivalent.

On one hand, the thought of millions of crucifixes being taken down from schoolhouse walls 3 months from now is truly heartbreaking.

On the other hand, if we had read in the newspapers that all public schools in Saudi Arabia would be henceforth forbidden from displaying any Koranic verses or Islamic art or calligraphy we’d celebrate that as a step forward for religious liberty, wouldn’t we?

That’s not true. The latest statistics from November 2009 indicate that Italy’s Church attendance is around 40%, either weekly Church attendance or Monthly.

That is not a ‘not bothered’ population when it comes to Religion.

Again, you are just assuming that there is a relative indifference to religion in the UK. Do you actually live in the UK? How would you know this?

I live in the UK, and I would say the UK is definitely more religious than say Sweden or France for example. There are a lot of devout people here. The Catholic Church has maintained a higher level of participation than the Church of England.

I think the majority of non-Church going people in Europe, would not call themselves atheist, they’ve just fallen into the culture of apathy.

As someone living in the UK, I can tell you, Christianity is far from dead in Europe.

THE FUTURE OF RELIGION IN EUROPE - zenit.org/article-20135?l=english

I live in the UK.

I live in the UK, and I would say the UK is definitely more religious than say Sweden or France for example. There are a lot of devout people here. The Catholic Church has maintained a higher level of participation than the Church of England.

Rather does depend on where one lives in France, I’d suggest. The fact that Catholic attendance is greater than Anglican attendance doesn’t actually say anything about the general population.

I think the majority of non-Church going people in Europe, would not call themselves atheist, they’ve just fallen into the culture of apathy.

Which is what I was saying so why are you so cross? There may be nuances between ‘indifference’ and ‘apathy’ but they’re only nuances.

As someone living in the UK, I can tell you, Christianity is far from dead in Europe.

I didn’t say it was dead, I said that indifference is a greater threat to religion than atheism.

And they’re going to a public school that’s meant to serve all Italians.

How can you be so sure? I know many Christians who, while devout in their belief, are big supporters of church-state separation.

You can want the crucifix removed without hating it. All that’s necessary is to believe that it’s inappropriate for the government to be supporting one religious denomination over all others.

No. The purpose of the public school, i.e. to educate children, continues for all students even without religious adornment on the walls put there by the school itself.

… and Jews, Muslims, Protestants, and Catholics who don’t want the government mucking around with their religion.

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