It's nothing personal


#1

Authority

** No one argues against the authority God gave Adam.**

Genesis 1
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Or when God gave Moses the authority to judge His people.

Exodus 18
14Now when Moses’ father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he said, “What is this thing that you are doing for the people? Why do **you alone sit as judge **and all the people stand about you from morning until evening?”

Or when Moses chose the twelve judges who were given the “authority”

25Moses chose able men out of all Israel and made them heads over the people, leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens.

26They judged the people at all times; the difficult dispute they would bring to Moses, but every minor dispute **they themselves would judge. **

What about Father Abraham or Jacob who became a Father of the twelve? These men were given authority by God to lead His people.

Am I the only one who sees the “theme” here?

Authority has been passed on down from the begining. And to deny authority is to deny God Himself.

God Himself gave the authority to His Son
John 20:21
So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” who then gave it to Peter who became our first pope which is Italian for poppa which means Father.

(And out of the twelve only one had his name changed by God and that was Peter! Look at Abraham and Israel both had their names changed by God) (Saul who went by Paul did not have his name changed by God)

A father is someone who loves his family and leads them to safety. God the Father chose men to be like fathers to lead His people to Him.

Fathers have authority!

It’s no wonder that people have a problem with authority. They must have problems with their fathers. Didn’t Martin Luther have a “father issue”?Anyway…

Protestants make themselves the authority. They become their own “pope”. There is no one in “charge” of their church. Their denominations are filled with “popes”.

Who came up with that saying?

“Have you accepted Jesus as **your own personal **Lord and Savior?”

Like I could own Jesus!:rolleyes:Really,who did?


#2

The question was “Who came up with that saying?”

“Have you accepted Jesus as your own personal Lord and Savior?”

Can it be narrowed down to a certain denomination?

Sorry so long winded,I had to get that off my chest.


#3

Seems very clear to me that we need authority and God knows that.


#4

Yeah but why does it seem clear to you?And not to others?


#5

here’s the problem with authority…the man with the gold makes the rules…the person who currently holds authority gets to say who has authority, so naturally he gives it to himself/ his friends.

denying authority is not denying God or His authority…

there are plenty of times when authority is missused (we are only human after all and are susceptible to greed), and in such cases, it is necessary to challenge said authority.

although i don’t recognize the legitimacy of many denominations within the greater realm of Christianity, I feel Martin Luther was very justified in splitting off from the Catholic Church. The Church was in the wrong…plain and simple…Luther did not try to challenge God’s authority…He meant well and meant to preserve the integrity of God’s mission on earth.

also, the Pope, like any human is fallible (yes, i know we are suppossed to belive that at times-not always- he is infallible). we recognize the Pope’s authority out of necessity for the survival of the Church.

why is male authority asserted in the Bible? because men wrote it (well most of it). yes, it is the “inspired” Word of God, but human innacuracy and bias is apparent in the scripture as well.


#6

Even stating that one may attend the Mass on a daily basis is dismissed sometimes in answer to that question - where there is multiple Bible readings and the availability of God’s Grace in the gift of the Eucharist (our Daily Bread) is not seen as Christ’s sacrifice and command to “Do this in memory of me.”

I too don’t understand where the “authority” came to make such assumptions that Catholics don’t worship Christ, & know the Bible.

Protestants can call themselves “Lutherans” - after a man… who gave him his authority?

And Christ Himself addressed those who do abuse their positions of legitimate authority - He said some would be dishonest men, but that their teachings would be correct - and to do as they say, but not as they do.


#7

It may vary from person-to-person. Reasons might be that it would seem the refusal to recognize authority comes from

a. absolutization of certain Scripture, i.e. all authority on heaven and earth has been given to Me. (while forgetting that Jesus also said, “as the Father sent Me, so I send you.”)

b. an honest misunderstanding of Scripture.

c. A degree of pride…a person does not want to submit to other humans (of course, not recognizing the promise of the Spirit in them)

d. The sadly too typical person who leaves the Church because of some moral teaching that made them feel bad about themselves, and then simply rejects ANYTHING the Church asserts. This is a very common psychology even in dating relationships…if the breakup is bitter, suddenly, person B no longer has a single good thing to say about person A.

e. Through the Catholic Church, Christ asks for a lot more than “faith alone” in the sense condemned in James 2. Leaving is often a “lazier” choice.

I’m sure any number of reasons could be determined. :o


#8

God did!

…by giving humans brains. I am a Catholic and love the Church, but if tomorrow, I saw the Church as I knew it corrupt and straying from the work of God, it would be my obligation to stand up and say NO; ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. Luther did not try to greedily topple the Church, He sought to preserve the true message of God.

The Catholic Church has had its fair share of corruption. In addition, Luther was prevented by speaking up because of 3 things (I can’t remember at the moment, but I’ll post them later)…they are 3 barriers to bringing about change.

The Church should not rule by bringing fear to the people of the world. We killed Galileo and plenty of “heretics” in the name of God, but that does not mean that the Church was right in doing so.


#9

Protestants make themselves the authority. They become their own “pope”. There is no one in “charge” of their church. Their denominations are filled with “popes”.

Not true, nothing personal, but where did you get that c_ _ p from ?


#10

“The whole reformation was one grand indulgence in libertinism.”- Bucer

Bucer again, “The greater part of the people seem only to have embraced the gospel [here, he uses the reformers name for their teaching] in order to shake off the yoke of discipline and the obligation of fasting and penance, which rested on them in popery, and that they may live according to their own pleasure, enjoying their lusts and lawless appetites without control. That was the reason they lent a willing ear to the teaching of justification by faith alone and not by good works, for the latter of which they had no relish.”


#11

I can’t speak for fellowChristian, but it is typically meant in the sense that anyone who forms their own Church and tells us what the Bible says is playing the stereotypical role of Pope. Since they insist no human authority, they are de facto dependent on their own interpretations of Scripture and definitions of faith.

Luther said it well at the outset:
Returning to the issue at hand, if your Papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word “alone” (sola), say this to him: “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so and he says that a papist and an _ss are the same thing.” Sic volo, sic iubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas. (I will it, I command it; my will is reason enough) For we are not going to become students and followers of the papists. Rather we will become their judge and master. - Martin Luther, 1530Link.


#12

It comes from our understanding that Protestants believe in Bible alone and personal interpretation of it.

In other words:

  1. If you read a Scripture passage and from the heart, interpret it in a way that differs from that of your pastor, whose interpretation are you to accept as truth?

  2. If there is a teaching that is unclear to you in some way (say for eg. infant baptism) and after reading Scripture, you decide that in all honesty it isn’t absolutely clear one way or the other, who do you accept as the source for determining the true answer? If it’s your pastor/certain teacher/etc., what happens if down the road your reason tells you that their answer was wrong and what you have reasoned is correct?

I’m not posing these questions to irritate. It’s just that it’s my understanding that Protestants believe that the final authority on what Scripture says is their own private interpretation. If that’s wrong, then I would like to know. But, I would also like to know then who you do consider the authoritative interpreter.

Nita


#13

Whats a protestant?


#14

You have reversed cause and effect, here.

Authority comes from authority - this is true. But it’s not true that the man with the gold makes the rules - rather, we give the gold to the man who makes the rules, so that he might rule in our favour. Thus, the ruler gets the gold. (And sometimes he becomes corrupted by it, and then he needs to be challenged. But his replacement has to be authorized by a recognized authority, because authority still has to come from authority; he (or she) can’t just appoint himself (or herself).) :wink:


#15

My faith in our Faith is due to God’s grace, not the sins of its members.

Thank you for this post, MarcoPolo -

I’ve never read his writings - **

“Judge and master of the papists.” ?

“My will is reason enough.” ?

“Because Dr. Martin Luther says so.” ?**

Rather than write who & what this brings to mind, I have just one question:

Where’s the authority from the Holy Spirit?


#16

:smiley:


#17

Jesus established the Authority when He founded His Church. It was the only Christian Church until the 16th century. Why do people think they can reinterpret the faith 1600 years later and that they know better than those who received it directly from Christ and the Apostles? Pure egotism and hubris, that’s the only answer.


#18

Hubris? Are you kidding? Do you think Martin Luther split because he was arrogant? I’m a Catholic and I love the Church, but any person who has studied the history of the Church knows that the Church has had a lot of corruption in the past.

It is not wrong for someone who sees corruption to question it and challenge it. The Church should not rule by keeping its members in fear and ignorance. That is exactly what it was doing. Luther sought not to spit in the face of the Church; he was protecting Christ’s true message by avoiding the corruption.

I don’t recognize the legitimacy of other denominations, but I definitely don’t think that Martin Luther was in the wrong. He is a martyr (figuratively) for truth, who could look past membership in the Church and focus on God’s true message.


#19

Luther’s internal motives may or may not have had to do exclusively with Church “corruption”…but either way, he was definitely arrogant. Just read him! :smiley:


#20

Granted. The Church may have been wrong. But then again, so was Martin Luthur.

Martin Luthur may have been right, but that doesn’t mean he could do no wrong.

And you can’t recreate God in your own image. Well, you can, no one’s stopping you, but that’s why the initial post was correct. Protestants have all these people each deciding what their religion really is. And that’s not for you or me or anyone else to decide. Not even Martin Luthur. He was a man like you and me.

Jesus granted Authority to Peter, and that authority was passed along through the Church Fathers i.e. Popes.

The only one, therefore, who can speak with any authority, at the end of the day, when all is said and done, whether I agree with it or not, is the Pope.

And thank God he does, because more often than not we are all “sheep gone astray.”


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