Jehovah Wtiness: Original Sin is a false legend.


#1

I recently had a discussion with a JW who told me:

If you read Gensis 5:2 it reads:

He created them male and female, and **blessed **them and called them Mankind in the day they were created.

JW: If God blessed them as the scripture reads,then it concludes Adam and Eve were married by God and could not have sinned.

My reply:

Explain how "blessed" means Adam and Eve did not sin or were married?

His look....:confused:


#2

I don’t really understand how this verse relates to the existence or non-existence of original sin. Adam incurred original sin when he committed the original sin, which Genesis describes as the eating of the fruit that God had forbidden him to eat. Henceforth, as the descendants of Adam, we all receive a ‘default’ state of original sin until Baptism.


#3

Did they just happen to leave out the part about getting thrown out of the Garden and evil, sin, suffering and death entering the world because of what Adam and Eve had done? These are the kind of things that makes one want to :banghead:


#4

It would seem that the Jehovah's Witness you spoke with doesn't know his own faith very well.

"Adam and Eve’s disobedience to God affected all future generations right down to our time. The Bible states: “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. . . By asserting their independence, Adam and Eve irreparably damaged their relationship with Jehovah and inflicted sin’s imprint upon their organism, right to its genetic foundations. True, they lived for hundreds of years, but they began to die “in the day” of their sin, as a branch severed from a tree would. (Genesis 5:5) Moreover, for the first time, they sensed an internal disharmony. They felt naked and tried to hide from God. (Genesis 3:7, 8) They also felt guilt, insecurity, and shame. Their sin produced an upheaval within them, their consciences accusing them of wrongdoing."
watchtower.org/e/200606b/article_01.htm


#5

Why are you even bothering to talk with or discuss religion with a Jehovah's Witness? It is an exercise in futility and you are opening yourself to nothing but aggrevation or possibly anger.
These people are brainwashed to the extent that they are immune to any argument you could give- including citing scripture-. They are essentially brain-washed and are especially trained to resist counter arguments to their cult.
The JW's basically evangelize and convert females. Because they know that once they have their clutches into the women, their menfolk will follow; that is, if their menfolk want to continue having any relationship with their women. You have no idea how many marriages have been destroyed by this! And the sect doesn't care, because they get a tremendous number of male converts this way....especially cradle Catholics who were never properly catechized. The JW's actually brag as to how many ex-Catholics have converted.


#6

It occurs to me that my initial reaction was somewhat uncharitable.

Do you remember the context for his quoting Genesis 5:2? What was going on in the discussion that led up to this?


#7

Whether it’s futile or not depends on what a person expects to get out of the discussion. If the purpose is to convince them that they are in error, then discussions with people committed to any faith other than your own is likely to be futile. If the purpose of the discussion is to get to know them and to better understand their beliefs, then the discussion could be very fruitful. I’ve found the Jehovah’s Witnesses I’ve worked with, talked with, and studied with to be kind, thoughtful, caring, and generous people.


#8

The Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult. They are very unorthodox. I would say that they are even more unorthodox than the Mormons. Be very wary of them. If you are going to debate them, make sure you learn about what they believe and how to refute their false doctrines first. That said, I am sure that many Witnesses are good people. Many Mormons are also good people. However, their religion is completely false and is not even Christian.


#9

[quote="jrtrent, post:7, topic:295251"]
Whether it's futile or not depends on what a person expects to get out of the discussion. If the purpose is to convince them that they are in error, then discussions with people committed to any faith other than your own is likely to be futile. If the purpose of the discussion is to get to know them and to better understand their beliefs, then the discussion could be very fruitful. I've found the Jehovah's Witnesses I've worked with, talked with, and studied with to be kind, thoughtful, caring, and generous people.

[/quote]

JR I’m very curious now…Please show me a JW that now better understands my Catholic beliefs. My mother and siblings still, after many conversations, tell me what they think I believe rather than hear what I truly believe.

Where is the frutfulness?:shrug:

Peace!!!


#10

Because it’s fun? :shrug:


#11

Welcome to every mainstream Christian sect… Just pull a random verse from the Bible (better yet, one that’s a bit ambiguous/vague), put your own spin on it and start preaching! :thumbsup: lol

This is yet another reason why I got out of “organized religion”. Those in the upper reaches of the church hierarchy simply sift through the Bible and hunt for random verses to confirm their own prejudices and ideas. Since there are no Bible verses that directly support them, they find verses they can warp and misconstrue to that end. :shrug:


#12

[quote="adf417, post:9, topic:295251"]
JR I’m very curious now…Please show me a JW that now better understands my Catholic beliefs. My mother and siblings still, after many conversations, tell me what they think I believe rather than hear what I truly believe.

Where is the frutfulness?

[/quote]

You had put in bold print part of my original statement: If the purpose of the discussion is to get to know them and to better understand their beliefs, then the discussion could be very fruitful.

Note that the fruitfulness in engaging in conversation with people of other faiths isn't necessarily to get them to better understand you (though that would be a nice outcome), but for you to better get to know them and their beliefs. When I went through a Jehovah's Witness home bible class, based on their book What Does the Bible Really Teach?, I learned a lot about their faith. I also attended some of their local meetings and conferences, and learned to respect their dedication and faithfulness. They, in turn, at least learned why I was not going to convert to their religion, and this is something I explained to them from the beginning--in short, that I don't believe in Sola Scriptura, and do believe the Bible is rightly understood through the lens of the creeds, early councils, and church liturgy. I spent many pleasant evenings with God-loving people, people who, it seems to me, more consistently live out their beliefs than many who espouse more orthodox doctrine. That doesn't make their religion true, but I have much greater respect for and understanding of these people than I had previously. I think that qualifies as fruitful.


#13

Exactly! That is what I told the JW. If they were blessed then why did God remove them from the Garden of Eden with angels protecting it?


#14

[quote="George_Stegmeir, post:5, topic:295251"]
Why are you even bothering to talk with or discuss religion with a Jehovah's Witness? It is an exercise in futility and you are opening yourself to nothing but aggrevation or possibly anger.
These people are brainwashed to the extent that they are immune to any argument you could give- including citing scripture-. They are essentially brain-washed and are especially trained to resist counter arguments to their cult.
The JW's basically evangelize and convert females. Because they know that once they have their clutches into the women, their menfolk will follow; that is, if their menfolk want to continue having any relationship with their women. You have no idea how many marriages have been destroyed by this! And the sect doesn't care, because they get a tremendous number of male converts this way....especially cradle Catholics who were never properly catechized. The JW's actually brag as to how many ex-Catholics have converted.

[/quote]

Nnnaaaa! I am passed the aggrevation point with them. I simply corner them.


#15

Organized religion? As opposed to unorganized religion?


#16

[quote="jrtrent, post:12, topic:295251"]
You had put in bold print part of my original statement: If the purpose of the discussion is to get to know them and to better understand their beliefs, then the discussion could be very fruitful.

Note that the fruitfulness in engaging in conversation with people of other faiths isn't necessarily to get them to better understand you (though that would be a nice outcome), but for you to better get to know them and their beliefs. When I went through a Jehovah's Witness home bible class, based on their book What Does the Bible Really Teach?, I learned a lot about their faith. I also attended some of their local meetings and conferences, and learned to respect their dedication and faithfulness. They, in turn, at least learned why I was not going to convert to their religion, and this is something I explained to them from the beginning--in short, that I don't believe in Sola Scriptura, and do believe the Bible is rightly understood through the lens of the creeds, early councils, and church liturgy. I spent many pleasant evenings with God-loving people, people who, it seems to me, more consistently live out their beliefs than many who espouse more orthodox doctrine. That doesn't make their religion true, but I have much greater respect for and understanding of these people than I had previously. I think that qualifies as fruitful.

[/quote]

Fruitful? Teaching bogus beliefs about Christ and historical Christianity is not fruitful,but outright deceiving.


#17

[quote="Nicea325, post:16, topic:295251"]
Fruitful? Teaching bogus beliefs about Christ and historical Christianity is not fruitful,but outright deceiving.

[/quote]

"CA makes every effort to provide our participants with a pleasant and informative place on the internet where Catholics and non-Catholics may gather. It is our hope that respectful dialogue and discussion will lead to better faith understandings." (Important Forum Information)

Again, the fruitfulness I'm talking about is not in getting someone else to change their teachings or beliefs, but simply my gaining a better understanding of their faith. You make it sound like Jehovah's Witnesses are not sincere in their beliefs, that they are deliberately perpetrating a fraud. I think if you spent more time with them in respectful dialogue and discussion, you'll find that, on the whole, they are people who honestly seek the truth and are living their lives in obedience to their beliefs.


#18

jrtrent:

“CA makes every effort to provide our participants with a pleasant and informative place on the internet where Catholics and non-Catholics may gather. It is our hope that respectful dialogue and discussion will lead to better faith understandings.” (Important Forum Information)

I have had many dialogues with JW’s and the fact I said their teachings about Christ are bogus does not mean I am disrespectful. Do you consider Jesus disrespectful for questioning the Jewish priest,scribes,etc?

Again, the fruitfulness I’m talking about is not in getting someone else to change their teachings or beliefs, but simply my gaining a better understanding of their faith.

I have and many times. My former roommate was a JW for fives years-heard it all and read enough about JW’s from their own sources.

You make it sound like Jehovah’s Witnesses are not sincere in their beliefs, that they are deliberately perpetrating a fraud.

Who said anything about JW’s not being sincere to their beliefs? Yes,their teachings have serious flaws whether you care to admit it or not and millions of others would agree.

I think if you spent more time with them in respectful dialogue and discussion, you’ll find that, on the whole, they are people who honestly seek the truth and are living their lives in obedience to their beliefs.

Been there…done that.


#19

[quote="Nicea325, post:18, topic:295251"]
Who said anything about JW's not being sincere to their beliefs?

[/quote]

I thought you did, when you wrote, "Teaching bogus beliefs about Christ and historical Christianity is not fruitful, but outright deceiving."

"Bogus" means fake, phony, pretended, sham
"Deceive" means mislead, be dishonest, hoax, hoodwink, play joke on

Your use of those words led me to conclude, "You make it sound like Jehovah's Witnesses are not sincere in their beliefs, that they are deliberately perpetrating a fraud." My apologies if I misunderstood you, but it was an honest mistake.

I have and many times. My former roommate was a JW for fives years-heard it all and read enough about JW's from their own sources. . . Yes, their teachings have serious flaws whether you care to admit it or not and millions of others would agree.

Well, you probably know a lot more about their doctrine than I do, then. Your original post, however, made it seem you were unaware that the Jehovah's Witnesses actually do have a doctrine of original sin, which is why I thought your exposure to their doctrine was limited. Instead it appears you simply like to "corner them," and enjoy their dumbfounded expressions when they can't answer a question you've posed.

I admit that their teachings have serious flaws. I discussed some of them during my studies with them last year, using some of the "stumpers" that can be found in The Essential Catholic Survival Guide as they came up in our talks. But they also seem to have a well-reasoned, well-researched Biblical basis for their beliefs, and they had answers they found acceptable for any item I brought up. Of course, so do Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, etc. Though their theology is less orthodox than most, I find Jehovah's Witnesses to be no different than any other religious body that claims to base all their teachings on the Bible--each interprets scripture from its own exegetical tradition, and shakes their collective heads sadly at others who can't seem to see the plain truth the Bible teaches.


#20

I think you may have miss understood me.

In your comment I bolded above I was referring to the JW’s in my family as the ones getting to know me better and understand my beliefs. As you point out in post #17, I am not expecting to realize the fruitfulness by changing their beliefs. I am however expecting them to accept that my beliefs are what they are and not what they say they are. Until that understanding can happen is the fruitfulness supposed to go only one way?

Let me put it another way. Say you are Baptist and you don’t believe in infant baptism. I, being Catholic, would not agree with your belief but understand it is what you believe and would be glad to discuss the doctrine till the cows come home. Assuming it is a respectful and open minded conversation. JW’s on the other hand, will take it upon themselves to actually try to convince you that you actually DO believe in infant baptism. This is not an actual example but I hope you get the point.

I can’t find anything fruitful in this scenario.

I have too. Unfortunately, and it is obvious, they have not learned mine.


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