Jehovahs Witnesses article attacking the Deity of Christ again

Is Jesus God?
“No man has seen God at any time.”—John 1:18.

WHAT PEOPLE SAY
Many people believe that Jesus is not God. Still, others point to Bible verses that supposedly indicate that Jesus is equal to God.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS
The Bible does not portray Jesus as being Almighty God or equal to God. On the contrary, it clearly teaches that Jesus is inferior to God. For example, the Bible records Jesus’ own words: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) The Bible also says: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) Jesus cannot be God because many people did in fact see Jesus.

Jesus’ early followers did not claim that he was God. For example, the Gospel writer John said concerning the things he recorded: “These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.”—John 20:31. *

May the Lord have mercy on these Heretics

Yeah, well we could start a new thread each month when the Watchtower magazine comes out because this is commonplace, along with bashing the Catholic Church. Its kind of like saying “Those darn Muslims have another article out about Muhammad”. :slight_smile:

This has always been their stance. Nothing new about this. They also have their own bible.

Far be it for us to claim we have a FULL understanding of the Dirty of Christ. It’s funny though, in quoting scripture they leave out John 1:1. “In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God…and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.” The Word(Jesus) was made flesh and dwelt among us.

Wait a minute…Their bible doesn’t translate that passage the same. Maybe that’s why it wasn’t quoted.

The “Dirty” of Christ? :eek: Deity, perhaps?:smiley:

My favourite is, “All [other] things were made through him.” Where in the world can you find the word, “other” in the Greek?

Not much of a witness

Perhaps you should check out this thread
Where does the Bible say that Jesus is God?

The JW’s have changed scriptures in order to promote this heresy. For more information on the translation JW’s use check out this site
Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible?

A quick comment about the verses sited above:
John 1:18 " No man has seen God at any Time ". The use of this verse to try and prove that Christ is not one in Being with the Father is not only disingenuous it is also fraught with difficulty, as I will explain, the only way The Jehovah Witnesses can get any mileage out of this verse at all is to not only isolate it from the rest of verse 18 and the prologue of John but to also isolate it from the rest of the Bible and the salvation history it contains.

This verse is a clear reference to Exodus 33 as you will recall in Ex 33 God has chastised the Israelites for there lack of faith displayed by the making and subsequent worship of the golden calf. He tells Moses to take the people up to the promised land but he will not go with them and will send an Angel instead. Moses then pleads with God and says that unless God himself goes with them and walks among them that they will not go. God relents and says that he will do what Moses has asked of him, Moses then asks to see God’s Face (Glory) and God says that no man can see God and live.

The rest of verse 18 goes on to say " that it has been left up to the Son who dwells with in the bosom of the Father to reveal him ". When we read Ex33 with the Prologue of Jn in the understanding of Phil 2:6-10. one can get a full picture of the Salvation history. One can clearly see that Gods promise to Moses has been fulfilled in the fullness of time, The Prologue tells us that yes the Word that was made flesh is God and Philippians 2 tells us how God was able to do it in a way that we as mere humans were able to see God without dying.

To try and make this verse say what the Witnesses want it to say is flat out dishonest and the irony is that if one dose their research it is easy to see that in Ex33 Moses and the Israelites rejected an Angel bringing them into the promised Land and forming the Covenant. And yet the Witnesses ask us to believe that God sent an Angel (Michael the Arc Angel ) who they say is Jesus to form the New and Better Covenant with us ???

The mind boggles at such front and blatant dishonesty!!!

The other two verse Jn 14:28 and Jn 20:31 is an Example of the deliberate confusion of Relational Subordination Theology. This was the main tactic of Arius and his followers in the early 4th Century.

Relational Subordination Theology is where Christ is seen as subordinate to the Father in their relationship i.e the Father commands the Son and the Son does the will of the Father. Not the other way around. The New Testament is Jam packed with examples of this and the two verses above are just a couple of them, even the language used, Father, Son etc reflects this relationship. The Witnesses like the Arians before them then try to stretch this relationship between Father and Son to include other attributes which can only belong to God but which are also attributed to the Son such as Creation, Eternal Existence, Omniscience etc. Which clearly show that That Christ is One in Being with the Father.

Once again this is dishonest, manipulative and a deliberate attempt to deceive.

This is my favorite part.

When I hear or see the word Lord, the first thing I think of is ‘the Lord’, Jesus Christ.

Can it still be called a heresy if they aren’t Catholic?

No. They are, like the Mormons, simply another religion altogether. It is a false religion, but not a heretical religion.

Steve are you sure? What’s the difference between the Arians and the JW’s? Also, the fact that they are self proclaimed Christians adds validity to the heresy aspect.

Peace!!!

The Arians were Catholics who promoted an erroneous and therefore heretical position concerning the nature of Christ. The JW’s were never Catholic and really never “Christian” and therefore can never be heretics. They are simply a false religion.

Even Protestant denominations today cannot be properly called heretics because their members have never been Catholic. The Protestant “reformers” were certainly heretics as they broke away from the Catholic Church, being first Catholic.

The fact that someone claims to be Christian is no measure of the truth of that claim. Mormons do the same and our Church has made a definitive statement that they are, in reality, an entirely different religion and not Christian at all.

I recognize they, the people, are not heretics but isn’t the religion itself considered heretical?

When Jesus prayed to the Father was Jesus praying to Himself?

Even I have troubles with this one sometimes.

Jesus is God, He was praying to God but not the same God that the God is that He was praying to but they are both fully God, not two gods.

If you are speaking of your garden variety Protestant yes, I think you are absolutely right. So one can believe in heretical teachings and not be considered a heretic. Who knew! :smiley:

The JW’s, however they are so far removed that it just isn’t the proper term, I don’t think. In other words, we wouldn’t say that the Hindus, for instance, were heretics. That they profess to be Christian does muddy the waters a bit until one learns their theology, which is not Christian at all. In fact they deny almost all things Christian.

Once again, read up on Relational Subordination Theology, where the Son is Subordinate to the Farther in their relationship but not in their Being.
My understanding is that God in all communication with creation must condescend in order to be understood. When forming the New Covenant with Mankind through Jesus Christ The Father- Son relationship is a working model for us to emulate.

Gal:4:4-6
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law:

5 That he might redeem those who were under the law: that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father.

So just as Jesus cried out to the Father, prayed to the Father, served the Father, did the will of the Father, obeyed the Father, loved and was loved by the Father with a Fathers love, so may we as adopted Sons of the Father.

As Paul tells us all through out the New Testament, those who were under the law obeyed the law to sanctify themselves before God and the relationship that they had with God was a Servant-Master or Subject-Sovereign Relationship under the New Testament we have a Father-Son Relationship a personal relation ship of Love.

God in his boundless love for us sent his only begotten into the world to face humiliation, shame and a horrifying death so that we also may become sons and be loved by a Fathers Love. Jesus said “I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except by me”. It is this Personal filial relationship between a Father and a Son that Jesus was talking about.

The Jehovah Witnesses do not have or share in this relationship with God, Just as John tells us. 1Jn2:23" Every one that denieth the Son, hath not the Father either. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also". This can be seen in their publications where you will never see them referring to God as the Father, and one will constantly read phrases such as Almighty Sovereign or Supreme Ruler of the Universe when they refer to God.

To take Gods free gift to us, which is the gift of a Fathers Love for a Son, which was only made possible through the obedient, sacrificial death of Gods only begotten Son. As Paul Tells us.

Phil 2: 5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery, to be himself equal to God:

7 But debased himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in shape found as a man.

8 *He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above every name:

10 *That in the name of Jesus, every knee should bow of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence) work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God who worketh in you both to will and to accomplish, according to the good-will.

14 *And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations:

15 That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a depraved and perverse generation: among whom you shine as lights in the world.

And then deny this gift to millions of people and enslave them in the service of a false, avarice, covetous, organisation by manipulating the very verses in God’s Word which down through the centuries have assured mankind that yes “The True Light that Enlightens all men did in fact come into the world” to freely give this priceless gift of a Fathers Love to us sinners.

Who would do such a thing as this??? I ask you, ask yourselves!!! Who would go into a persons home with the sole purpose of telling them that their Father does not Love them and they are not their Fathers Son.

I agree with you, but discussing this can be quite tricky with JW’s as the have the NWT. Try showing them those passages from the NWT and they’re entirely different…

Man I wish I spoke ancient Greek.

And that is sorta where scholasticism falls apart. :slight_smile:
I understand that it can sort of be explained. But on its most basic level it is a paradox to rend the mind in two.

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