"Jehovah's Witnesses, The Pope and Lies..."


#1

I knew my JW friend and I were headed into a debate when he asked me, “Are You Catholic?”

I replied and he informed me that he was a Catholic alter boy, choir member and was going to be a priest. To top it off he questioned me.

“Why would you want to be Catholic?”

My thoughts. (And please tell me if I sinning so I can go to confession.) GAME ON. It about time the good Lord gave me a good debate.

We agreed to debate on the Trinity, which was his picking. I see why because JW 's are drilled to answer questions dealing with the “false Trinity doctrine.” It’s not in the bible you know.:rolleyes:

So what are your thoughts, as we continue this Wednesday mourning on the Feast of the Queenship of Mary.

Here are three important topics.
[LIST=1]
*]When we left we he said I need to research this history tidbit. During the First Council of Nicaea, Constantine got into a fight with some bishops over the Trinity. He threw a fit and declared himself the first pope, Pope Pontiface Maximus, and defined the Trinity doctrine.
*]John 1:1 and the bad revision of my bible. He uses the New World Bible.
*]Quotes in scripture about the Father being greater than Jesus.[/LIST]Wow! Thank the Lord I was sitting when he said the first line. What a lie. :yup:

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Peace

John


#2

The Father is greater than the Son positionally, just not in substance.

I think I got that right. Please someone correct me if I just spouted out heresy.:o


#3

Start here and there are about 6 more tracks to read chock full of useful information.

catholic.com/library/Stumpers_for_Jehovah_Witnesse.asp


#4

Here is another place on CA to check.

catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp


#5

Good for you! :thumbsup: This site, created by a former JW, now Catholic, offers you a wealth of information in addressing the errors of the Witnesses:

catholicxjw.com/


#6

I believe the new world bible was translated by a fellow who didn’t know greek and supposedly channeled the spirit of God. There are alot of greek errors in it.


#7

Here are some additional resources.

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0501coff.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512frs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9004fea.asp (This one is especially good!)
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0101sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9207clas.asp

This should give you a good start.


#8

Go to this site:
biblegateway.com/
Print out John 1:1 from several Protestant Blbles; the King James, the NIV, the Darby and maybe even a few more. These translations will be the same as yours. They may or may not be surpried.

Then, point out to them that to say “…and the word was A god.” violates the first Commandment. Show them Ex 20:3, Deut 32:29 and Is 43:10.
Put them on the defensive. They don’t like it and are unprepared for it.


#9

That is a very important point. You see the NIV is an invalid translation. It is also the only translation that uses such language and was one put together specifically to support JW. It is a false and unreliable translation.


#10

Great stuff so far.

I am having a big problem with this Constantine as the first Pope thing. Does anybody have any resources on this.

Also, how do I overcome the belief that I have a corrupt bible since it is not the New Word Bible?

Thanks everyone.


#11

I’ve never heard that. I just know that it’s the most popular modern Protestant Bible.


#12

You mean NWT (New World Translation)


#13

:eek:

Oh yes. Excuse me. I meant the New World Translation. Please forgive me. :blush:

I do not know the NIV well enough to have an opinion on it.


#14

Sorry, I meant the NWT, New World Translation. That is the version used almost exclusively by the JWs.


#15

Although they usually have a KJV when they come knocking, at least here in NZ. The NWT comes later if you join their bible study I believe


#16

That view of history cannot be reconciled with reality.

While some secular historians may dispute whether Peter was the first Pope, all agree that St. Linus served at the Bishop of Rome beginning in 67 AD.

The 32nd pope, St. Miltiades, was occupying the chair of Peter when the Edict of Milan was issued by Constantine, Licinius, Maxentius and Galerius. All four of these men ruled the Roman empire jointly at the time.

Also the Edict of Milan granted toleration to Christianity. It is false to claim that Constantine made Christinity the “official” religion of the empire. It is also incorrect to claim Constantine alone issued it as he was ruling jointly at the time.

In fact, Constantine was the not first of these to issue a decree of toleration. In 311 Galerius decriminalized all religions.

It was not until 380 that Emperor Theodosius I made Christianity the official religion of Rome. St. Damasus I was pope when this decree came out.

Here is a list of Popes.
newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm


#17

Here is the best I could find. It is from Wikipeda

The last traces of emperors being at the same time chief pontiffs are found in inscriptions of Valentinian, Valens, and Gratianus (Orelli, Inscript. n1117, 1118). From the time of Theodosius, the emperors no longer appear in the dignity of pontiff; but at last the title was assumed by the Christian bishop of Rome.[11] The imperial title and the robes of pontifex maximus were given up by the Emperor Gratian(us) upon the influence of St. Ambrose. The reign of Gratian was also epochal since, in the year 382, state subsidies supporting the pagan religion were withdrawn and the Altar of Victory was removed from the Forum.[12] Although the Emperor renounced the title, the office itself was never abolished. Pope Damasus I was the first Bishop of Rome to assume the title,[13][14][15] referring to himself Pontifex Maximus in a petition to the Emperor for judicial immunity.[16] From the reign of Theodosius, no power or office in late antiquity has claimed or contested the legitimacy of the Bishop of Rome from holding the the ancient Roman title and office of Pontifex Maximus.

It is also interesting to note the specific differentiation made by Emperor Theodosius on the law of 27 February 380 (De Fide Catolica) enacted in Thessalonica and published in Constantinople for the whole empire establishing Catholic Christianity as the official religion of the empire: …the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria… We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title Catholic Christians; but as for the others….[17] The implied differentiation is notable but the full title pontifex maximus is not explicitly in the text; pontificem is used instead, i.e.:…declarat quamque pontificem damasum sequi claret et petrum alexandriae episcopum*…*(Theodosian Code XVI.1.2; and Sozomen, “Ecclesiastical History”, VII, iv. [18]).

It is not clear if the title Pontifex Maximus was used consistently by the Bishops of Rome from the time it was relinquished by the Emperor Gratian (AD 376) onwards. This was a time when the declining Roman Empire was transitioning from pagan to Christian, and Constantinople would begin to assert itself to pre-eminence, historically leading to conflict with the Bishops of Rome. Near the final collapse of the Roman Empire with the invasion of the Huns and Vandals, Pope Leo the Great is also attributed to have assumed the title Pontifex Maximus.[19] By the end of the 6th century, Gregory I was the first Pope to employ “Pontifex Maximus” in a formal sense, in a broader program of asserting Roman primacy. It has remained one of the titles of the popes to this day.

Despite its present character and transformation from its original Roman roots, this political or governing office has been in existence and in perpetual use since the birth of Rome.[20] The pope is literally, for all intents and purposes and in reality, the ‘high-priest’ (which is another translation of pontifex maximus) of the Catholic religion. Therefore, in terms of its origins and not its usage, the title Pontifex Maximus is the oldest title being used by the pope.** It would also count as the oldest continuing Roman institution or European office spanning a history of almost 3,000 years**


#18

The first Pope, although he was not called that,was picked by Christ. Pretty good so far. The Holy Spirit picked every one of his successors. Still pretty darned good in my book.

Tell him that the Vatican didn’t re-write, edit, embellish and distort your bible. It is verbatim from the early fathers. He cannot knowingly and honestly deny that Watchtower did exactly that with the NWT.

Obtain some of the CA tracts on the JWs and see how related their origins are to the Adventists and Mormons. I am reading Beginning Apologetics 2 by Fr. Frank Chacon and Jim Burnham. It is excellent.

You might advise him that, like the Pharisees, he is greatly mislead. Do so with great charity, because you bear the awesome burden of revealing the truth to him. He has not heard it, in its entirety, before. He left the faith due to poor catechism.

“The truth is the truth, even if no one believes it. A lie is still a lie, even if everyone believes it” - Bishop Fulton Sheen.


#19

Wikipedia is notoriously for being unreliable. That is because anybody can edit and write whatever they want.

Also, if you are going to quote a Wikipedia article, please provide the link.

While there is some correct information, the assertion that the Papacy is 3000 years old is utter nonsense.

Finally, the title “Pontifex Maximus” is not a title for the Pope that I have ever seen in Catholic literature. I have only seen it in anti-Catholic artcles.

If you look at the link of the list of popes I provided on my earlie, you will not find any Roman emperors.


#20

You should have a problem with Constantine being the first pope, because he never was. In fact, he didn’t officially convert until the end of his life, at which time he doffed his regal Emperor attire and wore the simple white robes of a neophite. The Eastern Orthodox consider him a saint, though the Catholic Church simply holds him in high regard for his efforts to end Christian persecution.


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