Jesuit calls for reform in Islam and an end to persecution of Christians


#1

See www.asianews.it March 31st. A great article. He lays it on the line. Islam does not respect human rights or Christianity. And it must change. Sharia is not the basis for a just society. If it does not change he suggests taking action against Muslim nations. A voice of reason.


#2

This is worth reading.


#3

[quote=cestusdei]See www.asianews.it March 31st. A great article. He lays it on the line. Islam does not respect human rights or Christianity. And it must change. Sharia is not the basis for a just society. If it does not change he suggests taking action against Muslim nations. A voice of reason.
[/quote]

Seems like someone wants to enforce their belief on Muslims and fight them if they don’t believe the same thing as them or give up their beliefs. cestu like I said earlier, our religion is from God, we can’t change it, maybe you can change your religion according to your whims and desires, but we can’t, I am so sorry.


#4

[quote=Emad]our religion is from God, we can’t change it, maybe you can change your religion according to your whims and desires, but we can’t, I am so sorry.
[/quote]

So, will the author of the article get a fatwa issued against him?
Is that the next step in “God’s” religion? Kill the man? Your concept of God is very different from mine. My God does not force anyone to believe. He would not have given us freewill if the plan were to *force *belief.


#5

Hello Eden,

I don’t see any moslem forcing any non-moslem to embrace islam not even in the past when they had their heydays nor today I see any door-to-door evangelisation by any moslem missionary. Though they do something called dawa, which is to mean propagation of their faith, just like any other faith has a right to do.

As long as a person does not embrace islam, he is free to believe whatever he likes. But once you want to embrace it by knowing fully what islam means and what are the consequences of leaving and taking arms/position against it, then you should be ready to take the blame. Because in moslem religion, there is no compulsion.

Embracing islam means making a bold commitment with the Creator. It is not like embracing any other religion with an understnading that if you leave with or without any reason it doesn’t matter.

Why do you compare islam with any other religion? Is islam a religion, from moslem point of view? You need to islam from it’s own glasses.

The remarkable thing of islam is, despite what we hear in the media and from anti islam movements/people, there are so many people who still love to embrace islam and do love to abide the bold commitment and conviction they make.

Is it not amazing that Islam is spreading faster and faster and on the other hand Christianity has split into many sects and loosing people from different ways. How many Christians would like to see their past holy Church governing on them once again and recall the period of Christian fundamentalist rule?

How about atleast in Italy, establishing a holy Catholic Chruch government?


#6

[quote=Eden]So, will the author of the article get a fatwa issued against him?
Is that the next step in “God’s” religion? Kill the man? Your concept of God is very different from mine. My God does not force anyone to believe. He would not have given us freewill if the plan were to *force *belief.
[/quote]

Where did I say anything about any fatwa against him or that he should be killed? :confused: Surely people have always been saying such things and no one has been killed. I would like you to look into the history of all Islamic states and tell me how many apostates were killed.


#7

Emad,
You know what? Yes, we are going to force Islam to change. We are going to force you to respect freedom of religion, speech, and human rights. We are going to force you to stop murdering Christians, selling them as slaves, or persecuting them as second class citizens. We are going to force you to treat people equally and to respect other peoples religious rights. We are going to stop you from stoning people to death. I don’t care if your caliph orders those things or not. We are going to stop it. In the end if Islam insists on such barbarism then we will have to end Islam.


#8

[quote=cestusdei]Emad,
You know what? Yes, we are going to force Islam to change. We are going to force you to respect freedom of religion, speech, and human rights. We are going to force you to stop murdering Christians, selling them as slaves, or persecuting them as second class citizens. We are going to force you to treat people equally and to respect other peoples religious rights. We are going to stop you from stoning people to death. I don’t care if your caliph orders those things or not. We are going to stop it. In the end if Islam insists on such barbarism then we will have to end Islam.
[/quote]

You don’t have to stop me because I am not doing any of that. Ces, until your narrow mind opens up a little, I choose not to talk to you anymore. Please ignore all my posts as I will be doing the same to yours.


#9

Emad,
All of those things are already being done to Christians by Muslims. Your only problem is that it isn’t a Caliph who is ordering it legally. That’s my problem with you and Islam. You KNOW these things are happening, but instead of working to put a stop to it you just sit back and wait for it to produce a Caliph. Then it will get worse. Instead of dealing with it you just avoid the issue and hope that we will pretend it isn’t happening. That make work with pro and his pc companions, but not with me. More and more Americans are waking up to the threat. Islam is viewed much more negatively now then even after 911. We learned more about it and began to realize that Islam is not the answer…it’s the problem.


#10

[quote=cestusdei]Emad,
All of those things are already being done to Christians by Muslims. Your only problem is that it isn’t a Caliph who is ordering it legally. That’s my problem with you and Islam. You KNOW these things are happening, but instead of working to put a stop to it you just sit back and wait for it to produce a Caliph. Then it will get worse. Instead of dealing with it you just avoid the issue and hope that we will pretend it isn’t happening. That make work with pro and his pc companions, but not with me. More and more Americans are waking up to the threat. Islam is viewed much more negatively now then even after 911. We learned more about it and began to realize that Islam is not the answer…it’s the problem.
[/quote]

Ok if you say all those things are true, back each one with a verse from the Quran or an authentic hadith. Show me where Islam :

*doesn’t respect freedom of religion, speech, and human rights.

teaches us to murder Christians

sell them as slaves, or persecuting them as second class citizens.

doesn’t respect other peoples religious rights.*

Back each one of your claims with a verse from the Quran or an authentic hadith.


#11

[quote=Emad]Ok if you say all those things are true, back each one with a verse from the Quran or an authentic hadith. Show me where Islam :

*doesn’t respect freedom of religion, speech, and human rights.

teaches us to murder Christians

sell them as slaves, or persecuting them as second class citizens.

doesn’t respect other peoples religious rights.*

Back each one of your claims with a verse from the Quran or an authentic hadith.
[/quote]

I don’t even need the quran or hadity. Although they do tell about killing kaffir, slavery, and discrimination against dhimmi. But I can simply point out the reality in today’s world. In Saudia Arabia I can say Mass, in the Sudan Christian’s are sold as slaves, in every Islamic country Christians have limited rights and are discriminated against. This is Islam. You, of course, don’t approve…but ONLY because there is no Caliph to order it. When he arrives then it will all be nice and legal. Then our murder will be JUST. Right?


#12

[quote=cestusdei]**I don’t even need the quran or hadity. ** Although they do tell about killing kaffir, slavery, and discrimination against dhimmi. But I can simply point out the reality in today’s world. In Saudia Arabia I can say Mass, in the Sudan Christian’s are sold as slaves, in every Islamic country Christians have limited rights and are discriminated against. This is Islam. You, of course, don’t approve…but ONLY because there is no Caliph to order it. When he arrives then it will all be nice and legal. Then our murder will be JUST. Right?
[/quote]

So your saying everything Muslims do is Islam? Can I say the same about Christianity? Also since you can’t back your claims with Quran or hadith, they are baseless. If you say Islam says something, be a man and prove it, where is your proof that Islam says it? Until you have proof, your claims are just a waste of your breath (or in this case, your fingers lol :wink: :smiley: )

:smiley:


#13

[quote=cestusdei]Emad,
You know what? Yes, we are going to force Islam to change. We are going to force you to respect freedom of religion, speech, and human rights. We are going to force you to stop murdering Christians, selling them as slaves, or persecuting them as second class citizens. We are going to force you to treat people equally and to respect other peoples religious rights. We are going to stop you from stoning people to death. I don’t care if your caliph orders those things or not. We are going to stop it. In the end if Islam insists on such barbarism then we will have to end Islam.
[/quote]

Hi cestusdei,

I already relpied to your similar objection, in an another thread titled: “Mariwan Halabjayee flees fatwa” in my posts # 72 & 73 at: forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=105659

Here again you are making baseless unChristian arguements. Let me remind/refresh few points so that you should think twice next time before raising such issues.

First, you do not have ONE unified church which can be called a true church which follows the actual teachings of Jesus (because there are no accurate uncorrupted teachings of Jesus, in the first place…but that is another subject)

Second, there are thousands of different sects and cults within your Christendom; as such everyone of it, in his mind, is a true follower of Christ and all of his opponents are not. Thus if you (a Catholic) think, you are the only true follower of Christ, then Mormons and Seventh Day Adentists and the rest are not. And if they are on right path, then you are not.

Third, to have a true freedom of religion, all denominations must be allowed to preach their doctrines as well and whatever their Holy Ghosts inspired them. You cannot restrict all non-Catholics not to teach their non-Catholic faith to your catholic children. They too should have a full access to teach their Mormonism or Satanism or Female-parts worshipism right in your Vatican and right in front of Pope’s residence because they in their minds are doing and preaching the right thing and since you advocate freedom of religion. And I will go little further and demand from you to allow all pagans, satan-cults and nudist cult to teach their faith right in your Church during your Mass; then you will see how many will remain in their Catholicsm and how many will came out from their pants/panties.

At the present since there is no country on the face of the Earth which is based on Catholic teachings nor any European or any state of America allow any shred of Catholic/Protestant teachings in their schools nor in the affairs of government/State; thus you have nothing to display any example what Catholicism is all about. Because none of the majority of any Christian country likes to implement Catholic precepts thus Church and State are kept seperate as if they are sworn enemies to each other and there is no way to marry them. (I am sure you know the reason. If not just read the history of Papacy’s ruling period).

No Christian country allow any religious/Bible based theory when it comes to Darwin’s Evolution theory, let alone teaching the whole Catholicism.

Almost all Christian developed countries such as European and America, have given freedom to naturists, homosexuals, pornographers, gays, lesbians, gamblers, prostitutes etc. Not to mention how many drug users are in those countries who despite “restrictions” easliy get their usual dosages and spoil themselves and their young generation.

Even Italy and areas around holy Vatican are not safe from naturists, homosexuals, pornographers, gays, lesbians, gamblers, prostitutes and drug users etc. Italy’s law is secular. Secularism means no room for any shred of Catholicsm in any affair of State not even in the schools.

So where is the Catholicism and what is it’s real role in human individual and collective life/society?

Eversince papal authority lost her power, no Christain wants to see Papacy’s rule back again because what Papacy did in the name of religion is a nightmere and it is well-known and pages of history are filled with her “kind actions” especially her kind attitude towards the Jews.

So, if Christians and Christian countries themselves are not ready to recall Papal rule aagain and love to remain secular (anti-Christian), then on what basis you think you have a right to impose your Christianity on non-Christians by going against their will when you don’t even have a good example to demonstrate it’s workability nor you are a true follower of “turn the other cheak” philosophy?

Don’t you think people have a right to see some examples/samples of what you want to sell, before they buy your product?

If your product (Christianity) is rejected by ------------

Continue


#14

[Hi cestusdei]

If your product (Christianity) is rejected by your own Catholics and not even bought by them in your very holy Italy or areas around the holy Vatican, then how you are going to make nonChristians believe that your product is the best and only solution?

Not to mention those Chrisrtians who call Rome a whore/harlot based on their inspired understanding of same Christian Scriptures.

If you say, since America and Europe are developed countries and lot of people love to go there thus you have a case; then my question is, do people really want to go America or Europe simply because tAmericans or Europeans are born with Christian names or because those countries are secular and have rejected Christianity centuries ago thus kept Christianity upto the Church and personal individual and optional level?
Had they not rejected Christianity rule and adopted secularism as a new non-Papal form of goverment, they would never have progressed technologially/scientifically but they still would have been living a life worst than the animals, as they used to live in the under the Papacy.

So, with all these loopholes in your very “Christendom” what right do you have to go out of your way and advice or demand other non-Catholic people of the world to respect other religions when you are not even as learned as those scribes and the Pharisees of Jesus’ time, who are strongly condemned by Jesus because they used to preach but practice not.

Did Jesus leave his own country or surrounding areas and went to Asia or America or Japan to teach his doctrine/faith? No. What he did was to clean-up his own nation first as he was sent to only Children of Israel. His first and foremost priority was his own people. Now in the same way your first priority should be your own family and your own town and country. Teach, propagate and implement your Christian values in your town/country first and get rid of naturists, homosexuals, pornographers, gays, lesbians, gamblers, prostitutes etc. then go to other nations such as Moslems, Hindus or Buddhists. Only then they will hearken and listen to you because the true followers of Christ are judged “by their fruits” otherwise:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."


#15

:dancing: Go Randel :dancing: :bounce: :clapping: :clapping: :tiphat: :blessyou: :smiley:


#16

The argument I will like to make is that muslim countries must respect the rights of Christians in muslim countries. As a Christian, if I can’t even show any concern for other Christians (in Sudan, where they are sold as slaves) then what kind of Christain would I be? Shouldn’t I be concerned about their persecution? You after all wish to defend Islam, so I too must defend Christianity. You can make all the arguments about the bad things that happend in Christendom four hundred years ago as much as you want. But since I live in a new century, I must be concerned about this one, and I have a right to be concerned about Christians who are being persecuted. Your interesting arguments will not stop me from being concerned for their welfare. True, there is a seperation between church and state iin the West, and I think thats a good thing. Remember what Jesus said, “render what belongs to Ceasar to Ceasar.” The problem with the koran is that it does not recognize that distinction, while Christains have gone against it. Perhaps that makes Christians hypocrites, but it also make reform possible in the Christian world, much harder in the Islamic world. One more point: actually I will concede that Muslims don’t always agree. Sufis and especially Shites are a downtrodden minority in many Sunni socities, and are persecuted just like Christains. I too am concerned about them. That is rarely brought up in discussions. I actually do believe that Islam does have the potiential of dividing into different sects, and perhaps thats one positive thing that can be said about it. Watch when Shites take control over Iraq, joined with Iran, and see how they will soon demand respect from the majority Islamic world. That should be very interesting to watch. So we are already bringing diversity into the Middle East. I think that Bush has already been largely successful.


#17

[quote=Emad]So your saying everything Muslims do is Islam? Can I say the same about Christianity? Also since you can’t back your claims with Quran or hadith, they are baseless. If you say Islam says something, be a man and prove it, where is your proof that Islam says it? Until you have proof, your claims are just a waste of your breath (or in this case, your fingers lol :wink: :smiley: )

:smiley:
[/quote]

When I quote hadity you say “oh it doesn’t mean kill them” even when it says “kill them”. When I quote quran it is the same. Just like my Egyptian friend who said there was no persecution of copts. When I finally presented overwhelming evidence that he could not deny he simply said “well they deserve it”. I will never forget that. It is a typical muslim form of argument. We have quoted hadith and the quran. Ah but then we catch you when you say it doesn’t count until there is a caliph. But you don’t say it will be wrong AFTER that. So be a man. Just tell us what is in store for us…dhimmitude with us bending our knees to the Islamic master. Be upfront and just say it. One thing I respect about the terrorists is that they don’t hide their intentions. They tell us exactly what they want and what they are going to do.


#18

Randel,

Which Islam product should I buy. Sunni, shiite, alawi, salafi, wahhabi? We do have freedom of religion. In our nation every religion can thrive and they do. Just compare us to any muslim country. How many methodist churches in Saudi Arabia? We even let you muslims worship freely and evangelize those few lunatics who care to listen. Part of that freedom is respecting the rights of religions you don’t agree with. That’s why we don’t have nudists at Mass. All religions are protected. It’s a great system. You should try it.

It is not the job of our government to preach any religion. Simply to guarantee the freedom of each person to practice their own faith. There is no favoritism. People are free to believe or not believe in evolution. As for Jews. Well we know how muslims treated Jews back in ole’ mo’s day and to this day. How many Jews in Saudi Arabia?

If I want prostitutes I can find them in any Arab city. Along with the other things you mention. Oh in the Taliban’s time they were hard to come by. But you had stonings and beheadings by the hundred. Gee, what an improvement.

Look at the Islamic nations. Backward, illiterate, barbaric, violent. Compare that to the nations influenced by Christendom. We are advanced. So much so that you BEG to come here. If I went to Cairo and offered free visa’s I would be trampled in the rush. Guess it isn’t so wonderful in Islamland.


#19

This is a terribly bad argument that is used by Protestants to defame the Church all the time.

“Look at Catholic nations versus ones with a strong protestant influence! No comparison…we’re so much more advanced, the Catholic hordes BEG to come to our Enlightment era paradises of development!”

Anyone who can’t see that is blind, and shouldn’t be leading anyone in any sort of worship at all.


#20

If I went to Cairo and offered free visa’s I would be trampled in the rush.

thats kinda true. But they would come here and build mosques, send their kids to Islamic schools and practice Islam…not Christianity.

Its not Islam, but the *lack * of Islam, that makes these “muslim” countries so bad.


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