Jesus a mere man - how to answer


#1

How the question below on the scripture passage I gave supporting Jesus’ divinity?

What I wrote:
John 20:28-29

“In answer Thomas said to him “My Lord and my GOD!” Jesus said to him: “because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see yet believe”

What my husband reply:

How do you know Thomas was not referring to GOD as the father in Heaven and addressing two instead of one?


#2

Because people just don’t talk like that. Imagine seeing your long lost son after 20 years. Would you say “My son and my aunt Tilly!”

But, as your husband demonstrates, the bible is chalk full of passages that can be interpreted in more than one way. Therefore, your husband has demonstrated the need for an infallible Magisterium. He done good! :slight_smile:


#3

Although this doesn’t apply to this particular passage, you could use the “Lord, liar, or lunatic” argument. If Jesus claimed to be God, he either was God, was lying, or was crazy. He certainly wasn’t crazy, and it would be foolish to die for the lie when he could have told Pilate the truth. The most plausible explanation is that Jesus was Who he said he was.

And if Jesus was only a man, how could he have appeared to Thomas after his resurrection?


#4

[quote=Grace and Glory] If Jesus claimed to be God, he either was God, was lying, or was crazy.
And if Jesus was only a man, how could he have appeared to Thomas after his resurrection?
[/quote]

Can you give me some passages where Jesus made the claim that he was God. Also, I don’t understand the logical of why resurrection would make him God? I thought there were a few people that were dead that Jesus brought back to life. Is that the same thing as resurrection?


#5

John 14: 8 **Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.

11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake.**


#6

Eireann, I tried this on my husband and he interrupts this as father/son relations into human life. For example, we have a 6 year old son. He argues that our son has a part of him because he came from both me and him.


#7

Don’t know if you can use the early church fathers in this case, but here’s a link. You might get some ible verses to back you up too.

catholic.com/library/Divinity_of_Chirst.asp


#8

[quote=emom]Eireann, I tried this on my husband and he interrupts this as father/son relations into human life. For example, we have a 6 year old son. He argues that our son has a part of him because he came from both me and him.
[/quote]

If that was all that Jesus meant by this statement, then the point would be so trivial and obvious that it would be ridiculous for Jesus to even mention it, especially in the midst of such an important discourse on the night before he was crucified.

Can you give me some passages where Jesus made the claim that he was God.

Recall this episode from John 10, starting at verse 30

[Jesus said] I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; **because you, being a man, make yourself God.” ** 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, **that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” **

Jesus response is not to deny he is God, as the Jews correctly understood him to be implying, but to look at the evidence of his works and decide for themselves.

Also, I don’t understand the logical of why resurrection would make him God? I thought there were a few people that were dead that Jesus brought back to life. Is that the same thing as resurrection?

Jesus’ resurrection was *essentially * and qualitatively different. He wasn’t raised by a power entirely outside himself (like others he himself raised), but clearly by means of his direct relationship with God, the Father. Also, the people that Jesus raised from the dead, by all indications, lived out the rest of their natural lives and then died for good. When Jesus was resurrected, he did so in a glorified body, as we can tell from it’s supernatural properties (like vanishing, walking through locked doors, and ascending into heaven; see Luke 24). BIG difference.


#9

emom,

maybe your husband has a confused view of the Trinity? maybe he thinks that we believe Jesus is the Father? Maybe you should clarify this to him… we believe there are 3 persons of the Trinity, the the Father unbegotten, uncreated, and co-eternal with the son and the spirit, the Son begotten, co-eternal with the Father and the spirit, and the Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son, co-eternal with the Son and the Father. See if this clears it up for him, and if yous till need passages supporting his Divinity there are tons… just check here…

scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

God bless,


#10

[quote=emom]Eireann, I tried this on my husband and he interrupts this as father/son relations into human life. For example, we have a 6 year old son. He argues that our son has a part of him because he came from both me and him.
[/quote]

Oh well :slight_smile: sometimes you just have to give it your best shot and leave it to the Holy Spirit.

Emmanuel means God among us.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 ** And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. **

Now from the above you can see that in the beginning was the word, and the word was God

Then later on John said the word became flesh, Jesus was the word become flesh,**Word was God ** anyway it all boils down to us not being able to grasp the Trinity.

We can plant the seeds of faith, but ultimately it’s the Holy Spirit that changes people, and us mere mortals are left chasing our tails.

Pray. :gopray2:

CCC 469 **The Church thus confesses that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man. He is truly the Son of God who, without ceasing to be God and Lord, became a man and our brother:

“What he was, he remained and what he was not, he assumed”, sings the Roman Liturgy. And the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom proclaims and sings: “O only-begotten Son and Word of God, immortal being, you who deigned for our salvation to become incarnate of the holy Mother of God and ever-virgin Mary, you who without change became man and were crucified, O Christ our God, you who by your death have crushed death, you who are one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit, save us!” ** Here


#11

About 5 days ago I met a Jehovah’s Witness in a parking lot and she asked if I had a few minutes. I said sure and we started talking.

I said that Jehovah’s Witnesses take their intepretation and push that and we should understand the Bible with the background of faith handed down by the Apostles.
I also said that it didn’t make sense to me why Jehovah’s Witnesses didn’t believe Jesus was God. She came up with some passages to try and prove that He wasn’t, so I said this doesn’t make sense to me if you put some passages together.

And she let me show her these verses and ask some questions like this…
Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book,
Who is that…She said Jehovah
So what about the end of the book,
Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Who is that…She said Jehovah
So I skipped 2 paragraphs down,
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches
When I presented this…She said then Jesus started talking
So I said this doesn’t make sense to me if I go to the beginning again.
Who is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end?
She said Jehovah.
So I turned again to Revelation 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore
Did God die?
This is when she stopped and told me she would have to get back to me.

So I gave her my address and phone number, and invited her to stop by anytime as I am always open to seeking truth.
Unfortunately she hasn’t called yet, please pray for her.

So this is an easy way to put a few passages together to show the divinity of Jesus.

God Bless
Scylla


#12

:bible1: :blessyou:


#13

The disciples (later apostles) never fully understood Jesus when he was alive. They were generally (not all) simple and not highly educated men. They were scared when Jesus was arrested and ran off deserting him with Peter even denying he knew Jesus. Apart from John none of them came to the crucifixion because they were scared of being caught. After Jesus died on the cross they all went into hiding for fear of their lives.
If Jesus was only a man and there was no resurrection, then what happened to turn this group of frightened men into courageous Apostles spreading the word of Jesus and suffering torture and brutal deaths in his name. Why would they do this for a man who was just dead and consequently a proven liar.
It is obvious only the resurrection of our Lord and his appearance to the disciples and the descent of the Holy Spirit would have had such an affect.


#14

emom - Depending on your husband’s acceptance of the Bible the following might help:

The Old Testament is replete with the symbolism of the sea as the abode of forces in opposition to God; His power is manifest in His command of the waters, holding them back lest they consume the land and the creatures thereon - especially man:

Job 7:12 - The sea is under guard; this reflects YHWH as Conqueror Who sets chaos in order and the sea and its monsters are under His control.

Job 3:8 - Leviathan dwells in the sea, a monster of primeval chaos.

Job 9:13 & 26:12 - Rahab, with Leviathan, a monster of chaos of which God is the Conquerer.

Job 38:16 - God alone has “walked” about the bottom of the Abyss

Job 40:25-32 - A further negative image of the sea wherein dwells Leviathan.

The Psalms also reflect God’s power of the destructive forces of the sea; cf. Pss. 18:4 (a symbol of danger);65:7; 73; 12-14; 77:16-19 (God “walking” on the water); 89:9-10; 104:7,25-26; 107:25-30.

See also Isaiah 27:1 and 51:9-10 - (the sea symbolizes the adverse powers which God must overcome to make His plan triumph; compare to Jesus calming the sea).

Now in the New Testament we have Mark 5:13 where the demons who once possessed the Gerasene man now possess the swine and flee to their “natural” abode, the waters. But notice what precedes this event - the calming of the waters of the sea; so not only does He command the demons, but even when they “hide” in the sea, so to speak, even there they won’t be safe from Him.

So it’s no wonder when we see the Lord Jesus’ command of the waters; when He calms the stormy waves or when He plants His feet on the water and walks on it. He manifests His Divine authority over both nature and (more especially) those forces symbolized by the forces of nature. (BTW, when we see St. Peter being called by the Lord to walk on the water, this indicates Peter’s authority in the Kingdom.)

Lastly, in Revelation 21:1 we see that what is used to symbolize the ultimate triumph of God and His Christ is that the “sea will be no more”; the satanic abyss and forces of disorder will no longer have any power to attempt to disrupt God’s Eternal Rule. At the Parousia there will be no more confrontations between Christ and the Evil One and his minions.


#15

[quote=emom]Jesus a mere man - how to answer
[/quote]

You could say:

Yes, Jesus was absolutely a mere man.

He was also true God.


#16

Ask the person if the body of a “mere” man would glow brightly from WITHIN and his face shine as bright as the sun, from within, as happened to the body of Our Lord at the Transfiguration.
Love,
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)


#17

John 18:

4 Jesus, knowing everything that was going to happen to him, went out and said to them, “Whom are you looking for?” 5 They answered him, “Jesus the Nazorean.” He said to them, “I AM.” Judas his betrayer was also with them. 6 When he said to them, “I AM,” they turned away and fell to the ground.

“I AM” is the name of God, Yahweh. We know he wasn’t simply answering their querry in the casual “yeah, that’s me” sense because they turn away and fall to the ground. They knew exactly what He was claiming, and were likely horrified at His blasphemy in claiming to be God.

A similar example is from the same Gospel, chapter 8, which reads:

52: The Jews said to him, "Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, as did the prophets; and you say, `If any one keeps my word, he will never taste death.'
53: Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?"
54: Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God.
55: But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word.
56: Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad."
57: The Jews then said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
58: Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
59: So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

Notice they tried to stone Him when He said this. They weren’t playing games, and neither was Jesus. He knew full well that claiming to be “I AM” was the greatest blasphemy a man could commit.

He may have been a liar, or crazy, but He definately claimed to be Yahweh.

Peace and God bless!


#18

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