Jesus and the Holy Spirit

I want to open up a topic in regards to mostly to God the Holy Spirit. I believe in the trinity, and i am comfortable in some confusions with it but I find it so interesting to hear others theories/beliefs on it so part of this topic may lead into the topic of the Holy Trinity.

Anyway, do you think it is correct to say Jesus was the Holy Spirit in the flesh? I know the Bible says he was the Word incarnate, but all physical bodies are just vessels of a spirit and a soul. Would this also be the same for Jesus?

I always thought that the word “Logos” was like the “Soul” of God. I never saw the “Soul” and the Spirit to be the same thing, as with Hebrews 4:12. The Soul being the one that gives our bodies and life an identity (emotions for example), it’s the mind. while the Spirit is our life force/energy? This kinda sounds relevant to the verse in Genesis in where created us in his likeness. God is Trinity (Father, Word, Spirit), then Man is trinity (Body, Mind, Spirit).

I do expect disagreements and maybe confusion with what i said, it’s no problem.

The Church holds that the Second Person of the Trinity alone is hypostatically united to the human nature of Christ. The Father and the Holy Ghost participated in the Incarnation, but not by hypostatical union. (If you want documentation I’ll have to do some digging.)

Further, Catholic theology holds that we are not souls imprisoned in bodies, but that the whole man is body *and *soul (see, e.g., S.T. I, Q. 76).

Jesus, too, has a human soul; he is not merely the dwelling place of the Holy Ghost (though the Two obviously have a special relationship).

It is correct to say that Jesus is God incarnate and that Jesus is the Son incarnate but not correct to say that Jesus is the Holy Spirit incarnate or the Father incarnate. However, since all miracles, including the miracles performed by Jesus, are the work of the Trinity, all three divine persons working together, the miracles performed by Jesus can be said to be wrought by the power of the Holy Spirit but not in a way that excludes the involvement of the Father and the Son, as when Jesus said:
And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (Matthew 12:27-28)

That Jesus in not the Holy Spirit incarnate is indicated in the following passages where they are clearly shown to be distinct persons:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:32)

Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.” (Luke 3:21-22)

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (John 14:23)

But the last words of Jesus on the cross was “Father, into thy hands I give my Spirit”. Jesus was the word incarnate, but he still had a spirit in him.

Yes but we must be careful with literal interpretations whenever Jesus is quoting scripture, in this case it’s psalm 31. He also says my God why have you forsaken me (another psalm) and I’m of the opinion that it’s probably impossible for God to forsake Jesus because of the Godhead.

I’d be interested to see if the Church has anything official on this verse

The spirit he refers to here is not the Holy Ghost but His human soul. Death is the separation of body from soul; and He really died as other men die.

St. Gregory of Nyssa writes:

…at the time of His Passion, His Divinity … separated the soul from the body, yet showed itself abiding in each. For through the body in which He suffered death He vanquished the power of death, but through the soul He prepared for the thief an entrance into Paradise. … (qtd. in Catena Aurea, Lk. 23, Lex. 8)

St. John of Damascus writes:

In respect of His body, He was in the grave, in respect of His soul, He was in hell, and with the thief in Paradise; but as God, on the throne with His Father and the Holy Spirit. (Ibid)

(There the word ‘hell’ refers to the abode of the dead generally, not to the hell of the damned.)

My understanding of it was that God turns away from sin, and during this moment, the sins of the world were already covering Christ… so there came that “why have you forsaken me” quote. This whole Trinity thing is confusing, but not in a stressful way.

No because in John 14:16 Jesus tells us that the Father will send ‘another’ Paraclete. Also, the Holy Trinity is manifested at Jesus’ baptism.

However, in a different sense yes because they are in unity as One God.

A reference to Jesus’ human spirit, which gives life to the human body, as in the case of St Stephen:
And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7:59)

Is it because the translation of the verse you are using capitalizes the word “Spirit” that you think this is a reference to the Holy Spirit? If that is the case, you should know that the word “spirit” in this verse is almost always rendered with a lower case “s”. For example, of the 50 or so English translations at Bible Gateway, only one translation capitalizes the word “Spirit.” This suggests that almost all translators understand that in this verse Jesus was referring to his human spirit, the kind of spirit common to all humans, and not to the Holy Spirit.

I don’t think Jesus Christ had sins transferred onto him. Jesus Christ was a sin-offering to fix the wrong, not to become the wrong.

Jesus Christ has both divine and human nature. The human nature has a rational soul. The human soul is the spiritual immortal part that animates the body.

There are three Persons in the Most Holy Trinity, and there is circuminsession

Modern Catholic Dictionary

Circuminsession. The mutual immanence of the three distinct persons of the Holy Trinity. The Father is entirely in the Son, likewise in the Holy Spirit; and so is the Son in the Father and the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit in the Father and the Son. Circuminsession also identifies the mutual immanence of the two distinct natures in the one Person of Jesus Christ.

He took the sins of the world. It was pretty much carried by him on the cross.

Originally Posted by cisco 1

I never saw the “Soul” and the Spirit to be the same thing, as with Hebrews 4:12. The Soul being the one that gives our bodies and life an identity (emotions for example), it’s the mind, while the Spirit is our life force/energy?

The terms “soul” and “spirit” in the Bible are used somewhat interchangeably. Both are used as the “life force”. ”…and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived (1 Kings 17:22). “Thus says the Lord, who…formed the spirit of man within him” (Zechariah 12:1, James 2:26).

Both are used as the seat of thoughts and emotions. ”My soul is very sorrowful even to death” (Matt 26:38). “…my spirit within me was anxious” (Daniel 7:15). (For a happier view Psalm 35:9 and Luke 1:47)

Sometimes even using both in the same manner together. ”I will speak in the anguish of my spirit, I will complain in the bitterness of my soul” (Job 7:11).

Both are used in terms of being “lost” or “saved” (1 Cor 5:5, James 5:20)
Both are used in terms of “spirits/souls” without a body (physically dead), yet still alive and aware (Rev 6:9-10, 1 Peter 3:19-20).

Also consider 1 Thes 5:23 ”may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound” and 2 Kings 23:25 …who turned to the Lord with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might”. You could include ”heart, mind, soul, and strength (Mark 12:30 and Luke 10:27). It’s using different words to convey the same meaning (i.e. everything about you), not defining different “parts” of the human person.

I think Hebrews 4:12 is speaking figuratively of judging our actions of the flesh (soul) with the intentions of the heart (spirit). I view this as God seeing through hypocrisy (Matt 6:2-5; 23:14) although there are several views that could apply. If “spirit” and “soul” are two different “parts”, this is the only scripture that really supports that theory and as such it seems highly unlikely that that is what is being conveyed, especially considering the interchangeable usage throughout the rest of scripture.

Very basic Catholic view:
Soul= life principle in any living physical body (plant, animal, or person).
Spirit= life principle that knows, loves, has power over matter (God, good and bad angels).

Human persons therefore have what we call a “rational soul”. It is a spirit that knows, loves, and has power over matter (to a limited degree), but also functions as a soul giving life and joined to a physical body. It is our spirit which is made in the image and likeness of God. In common usage we usually refer to the human “soul”, while God and angels are “spirits”.

Originally Posted by cisco 1

I believe in the trinity……

Anyway, do you think it is correct to say Jesus was the Holy Spirit in the flesh? I know the Bible says he was the Word incarnate, but all physical bodies are just vessels of a spirit and a soul. Would this also be the same for Jesus?

God is Trinity (Father, Word, Spirit)….

If Jesus is the Holy Spirit AND the Word, then you don’t have a trinity. You only have the Father and either the Word or the Holy Spirit. Jesus was not the Holy Spirit in the flesh, otherwise he wouldn’t have spoken of him as a different person. Jesus didn’t have identity problems.

Because our “rational souls” were made to be joined with our bodies, we would be incomplete without the body. There would also be no point to the resurrection of the body if it was simply a temporary vessel to be shed. Angels were created pure spirits. We were created as body and spirit composite. That is why death is so devastating. It separates what was “very good” united together. What is not good is the separation of the two in death.

I highly recommend “Theology for Beginners” by Frank Sheed. It’s easy to read, but it will stretch your mind.

Originally Posted by cisco 1

My understanding of it was that God turns away from sin, and during this moment, the sins of the world were already covering Christ… so there came that “why have you forsaken me” quote.

The idea of “the sins of the world were already covering Christ” is more of a protestant view than a Catholic one (although I’ve heard this from many Catholics including Priests).

The Catholic view is more along the lines of: he willingly took the consequences of sin (death) upon himself so that we may obtain eternal life. He undid the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden. He took the consequence of sin upon himself, not the sin itself (Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23). In this sense “he was made to be sin for us, who knew no sin” (2 Cor 5:21). If Jesus actually took on our sins, then he would no longer have been a pure offering or a spotless victim, he would have been blemished by us.

We are “reconciled to God by the death of his Son” (Romans 5:10), not the punishment of his Son. Jesus was not punished for our sins. That would be an act of injustice. Furthermore, if the Father had actually turned away from Jesus, that would mean that his sacrifice was unacceptable to the Father (Ps 132:10-11). But because of the Resurrection and Ascension we know that it was acceptable.

We bear one anothers burdens. If one has cancer I don’t take that cancer, though I try to fix.

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