Jesus as True God and True Man

There is ONE God.

He is three Divine Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

God the Son, 2000 years ago (approx.) took human flesh upon Himself to become fully man.

He is fully God and fully man.

He took flesh of the Blessed Virgin Mary to accomplish this task.

In another thread I mentioned . . . .

I affirm Jesus as True God and True Man because of reliable witnesses.

@FiveLinden replied . . . .

I don’t want to derail the thread but would be happy to discuss the witness issue as ‘proof’. For example I find it remarkable that Matthew, Mark and Luke never say that Jesus is God in any sort of direct way. And do we have any direct testimony from people who knew Jesus? Please think about starting a thread!

So here I am.

FiveLinden. What do you think are the “indirect ways” Matthew, Mark, and Luke affirm Jesus’ Divinity?

Matthew 16:16: Peter affirms Jesus’ divinity as Son of God

Luke 22:66-71: Jesus quite clearly repeats his claim to divinity, and the tribunal is stunned at his perceived blasphemy.

Mark 14:53-65: Jesus says “I AM” (which is the Tetragrammaton) and the high priest tears his robes at the perceived blasphemy.

I don’t know why it is controversial, except perhaps to an Arian; all four Evangelists affirm Christ’s divinity in no uncertain terms. I could find more if I tried.

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Well in context he says ‘I am the Messiah’, a predicted figure no one expected to be God.

John affirms Christ as God. The other Gospels do not. He may be ‘divine’ in the sense of being associated with God, but only in John do we find things like:

“Before Abraham, I am” (8:58), “I and the Father are one” (10:30), “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father” (14:9) and the prayer to “glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world was created” (17:5).

In my view if the writers of the first three Gospels had believed these things of Jesus, that he was the same as God, they would have said so clearly and not in text requiring mental agility to ‘read it into’ the words.

Perhaps the other three Evangelists simply took it for granted, that the early Jesus cult all believed without question that He is God, and it wasn’t until the sect spread outside the confines of Jewish quarters that some Gentiles didn’t believe in His divinity, and so John decided to remind them of certain doctrines in no uncertain terms.

Why can’t we assume the obvious here?

I think there is a lot of confusion about the use of the team ‘Son of God’. Christians seem to think it means ‘second person of the Trinity’. I don’t see any reason to think that is what the writers of the first three Gospels thought. But later theology, read back into the text, makes it possible for people to convince themselves that the writers believed Jesus was God. And there is similar confusion over the term ‘Messiah’. As Bart Ehrman has pointed out there was absolutely no Jewish expectation that the Messiah would be God. So if Jesus said he was the Messiah, he was telling people he was not God, because his listeners did not expect the Messiah to be God.

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It is obvious to me that if one were to be writing about a human being you thought was God, you would mention it. A lot.

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I don’t agree. If you believe he is God then you would be talking/writing about his mission/message.

St. Ephrem the Syrian said the following about this topic:

If he was not flesh, why was Mary needed? And if he was not God, whom was Gabriel calling “Lord”?

If he was not flesh, who was lying in the manger? And if he was not God, whom did the Angels come down and glorify?

If he was not flesh, who was wrapped in swaddling clothes? And if he was not God, whom did the shepherds worship?

If he was not flesh, whom did Joseph circumcise? And if he was not God, in whose honor did the star speed through the heavens?

If he was not flesh, whom did Symeon carry in his arms? And if he was not God, to whom did he say, “Lord, Let me depart in peace”?

If he was not flesh, who was invited to the wedding in Cana of Galilee? And if he was not God, who turned the water into wine?

If he was not flesh, in whose hands were the loaves? And if he was not God, who satisfied crowds and thousands in the desert, not counting women and children, from five loaves and two fishes?

If he was not flesh, who fell asleep in the boat? And if he was not God, who rebuked the winds and the sea?

If he was not flesh, who wore human garments? And if he was not God, why was the woman healed who touched his garments?

If he was not flesh, who spat on the ground and made clay? And if he was not God, who through the clay compelled the eyes to see?

If he was not flesh, who wept at Lazarus’ grave? And if he was not God, who by his command brought out one four days dead?

If he was not flesh, who was struck with a blow? And if he was not God, who cured the ear that had been cut off by Peter and restored it to its place?

If he was not flesh, who stood before Pilate at the judgement seat? And if he was not God, who frightened Pilate’s wife with a dream?

If he was not flesh, whose garments did the soldiers strip off and divide? And if he was not God, how was the sun darkened at the cross?

If he was not flesh, who was hung on the cross? And if he was not God, who shook the earth from its foundations?

If he was not flesh, whose hands and feet were transfixed by nails? And if he was not God, how was the veil of the temple rent, the rocks broken and the graves opened?

If he was not flesh, who was hung on a cross with the thieves? And if he was not God, how did he say to the thief, “Today you will be with me in Paradise”?

If he was not flesh, to whom did they offer vinegar and gall? And if he was not God, on hearing whose voice did Hades tremble?

If he was not flesh, whose side did the lance pierce, and blood and water came out? And if he was not God, who smashed to gates of Hades and tear apart it bonds? And at whose command did the imprisoned dead come out?

If he was not flesh, whom did the Apostles see in the upper room? And if he was not God, how did he enter when the doors were locked?

If he was not flesh, in whose hands and side did Thomas handle the marks of the nails and the lance? And if he was not God, to whom did he cry out, “My Lord and my God”?

If he was not flesh, who ate by the sea of Tiberias? And if he was not God, at whose command was the net filled?

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Calling Jesus the Son of God here clearly has a different meaning from what is expected because it is a divine revelation from the Father. Others called Him Son of God (Matt. 14:33, Matt. 27:54, John 1:49) but in those instances no blessing was pronounced and no divine revelation was revealed. There was something different with this declaration then the others, namely, St. Peter is saying that Jesus is the Son of God by nature; consubstantial with the Father.

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John 1:30

30 The Father and I are one.

John 8

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Whom dost thou make thyself? 54 Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55And you have not known him: but I know him. And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar. But I do know him and do keep his word. 56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it and was glad. 57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old. And hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM. 59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him. But Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Colossians 2

9 For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily, 10 and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head of every principality and power.

It’s very hard for Christians to not see Godhood on Jesus as they’ve been taught it their whole life.

Jews had different views of divinity. Remember, they were devout monotheists. Matthew Mark and Luke do imply Jesus as being divine in some sense but never refer to him as God Himself. Son of Man can refer to a generic person but later became more understood as someone with divine blessings upon him. That still isn’t to the level of God and they never refer to him as such.

When we get to John, it’s another story. Jesus is compared directly to God with the I Am statement, the father and I are one, etc. Between the time of the Synoptics and the writings of John, we definitely see the progression to Godhood…but not until. That is still very early.

The Synoptics seem to each tell a story of when Jesus gained divinity. In Mark, it’s at the Baptism, in Matthew and Luke, it’s at his conception and birth. In John only is Jesus divine from the beginning of time itself. It’s also only in John where it’s clear the Jesus divinity is as God, whereas in the Synoptics, Jesus is divine in some sense but not on the level of God.

I know everyone here will disagree. It’s hard to see when you’ve been trained to see Jesus as God throughout the scriptures as being able to see it any other way, but I assure you, when you haven’t been taught to see it that way, this interpretation is much more apparent.

And I agree with @FiveLinden, if Jesus was thought to be God in the Synoptics, they would say it as clearly as John does…over and over.

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FiveLinden . . .

. . . I find it remarkable that Matthew, Mark and Luke never say that Jesus is God
in any sort of direct way. . . .

Cathoholic . . .

FiveLinden. What do you think are the “indirect ways” Matthew, Mark, and Luke affirm Jesus’ Divinity?

FiveLinden . . .

I think there is a lot of confusion about the use of the team ‘Son of God’.

Cathoholic again . . . .

FiveLinden. What do you think
are the “indirect ways” Matthew, Mark, and Luke affirm Jesus’ Divinity?

Bold added for emphasis.

PattyIt . . .

The Synoptics seem to each tell a story of when Jesus gained divinity.

Sorry PattyIt.

But you don’t “gain” Divinity.

Blessed be Jesus Christ, true God and true Man!

I know everyone here will disagree. It’s hard to see when you’ve been trained to see Jesus as God throughout the scriptures as being able to see it any other way, but I assure you, when you haven’t been taught to see it that way, this interpretation is much more apparent.

You are right about me at least. I disagree with your denial of Jesus’ Divine nature.

It’s hard to see when you’ve been trained to deny Jesus as God throughout the scriptures as being able to see it any other way, but I assure you, when you haven’t been taught to see it that way, this interpretation is much more apparent.

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Not quite. I was first introduced to the gospels by Christians and believe me, they were training me to see it your way. I just couldn’t. I kept making the “mistake” of reading each gospel for itself instead of trying to mash it all together as I was being taught. Later I learned that the way I was reading it is the way other non Christians see it, too. It’s a learned experience for the Christian reading way. It’s not the natural way anyone else would read them.

You are a believer, I am not. Your way is right for you but not for me, and my way is right for me and not for you. I’m not wrong, you’re not wrong…we’re just different.

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Divinity doesn’t necessarily mean God; Jesus was a man but He is divine just like believers are also said to share in the divine nature.
The idea that God is an entity separate from all other things is the source of confusion. God creates by manifesting Himself into.

I agree that John thought Jesus was divine. It is the other gospel writers I think did not.

Confused…

If they think that Jesus is a mere mortal, then they would write about His mortality. Where do you find that in the Gospels?

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Did you see that Paul also believed in the divinity of Christ? (see Colossians 2:9.)

Also see 2 Peter 1:1

1 Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained equal faith with us in the justice of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

PattyIt . . .

Your way is right for you but not for me, and my way is right for me and not for you. I’m not wrong, you’re not wrong…we’re just different.

But I am not attempting to get you to conform to “my way”.

I’m just stating a fact.

God is Trinity.

God revealed such truths to us.
But only when mankind was prepared by grace.

It is just fact. It is not a “my way” or “your way” situation.

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