Jesus did not establish this church?


#1

I’m taking a couse on discipleship at the local seminary. I’m not a seminarian, just a lay person. However, I’m really racking my brain trying to discern whether or not this class is true to the church’s teachings. Our text book; “How to Understand Church and Ministry in the United States” by Sr. Regina Cole; Page 47 of this books says “Jesus was about the revitalization of Judaism, not the establishment of a new religion. The church was established by the disciples who were all Jews until Paul opened the gates wide for non-Jews to enter…”

The end of this book states that the church’s options in the future are to ordain woman priests, allow married priests, or permit the deacons to preside over the Eucharist. That to do nothing would be the church’s biggest mistake.

I need some direction and assistance if I’m going to challenge the course material at our local seminary!!


#2

I would run, not walk, from that class.


#3

Would you really run away from this? There are 13 people in my class, all laity. I converted to Roman Catholicism two years ago and this is the first class I have enrolled in at the seminary. I must admit that what I perceive the Catholic church to be and what is being taught in this course are two different things…but I am learning everything for the first time…

The author of this book also discusses “conscience and authority” and states that we should express dissent from the church in regards to noninfallible teachings.

Should I fight these teachings? If so, what would be the right way to go about that?

peace,

Kevin

<>


#4

From the things you have written, it seems this class is anti-Catholic. It is up to you how to procede from here…as for me, I would ran away as fast as I could. I have never seen anything good from trying to get a class restructured or changed to more closely fit the teachings of the Church.


#5

[quote=Kev ><>]Would you really run away from this? There are 13 people in my class, all laity. I converted to Roman Catholicism two years ago and this is the first class I have enrolled in at the seminary. I must admit that what I perceive the Catholic church to be and what is being taught in this course are two different things…but I am learning everything for the first time…

The author of this book also discusses “conscience and authority” and states that we should express dissent from the church in regards to noninfallible teachings.

Should I fight these teachings? If so, what would be the right way to go about that?

peace,

Kevin

<>
[/quote]

I would - respectfully - ask for the magisterium documents which back up what the book teaches. If they cannot produce those documents then the book is ‘just an opinion’, at which point you have a right to your opinion also.

The way to ‘fight’ these teachings would be to be sure teachings are infallible and what are not, what Catholics are ‘required’ to believe and what they are not…I would show up to class with a copy of the Catechism.


#6

Write the Seminary Director. Tell him you want a written response in 10 days. If he does not respond or his response is questionable then write the Bishop.

But above all I think you owe it to the other people in the class to stay. Arm yourself with the Holy Spririt and defend the Church at every chance with this book.

You were put in this situation for a reason. Pray and study the true teachings of the Church.

We are all here for you. Do what you think is right but know that one of those other people may be lost and being lead down a wrong road with out you.


#7

[quote=solanus]Write the Seminary Director. Tell him you want a written response in 10 days. If he does not respond or his response is questionable then write the Bishop.

But above all I think you owe it to the other people in the class to stay. Arm yourself with the Holy Spririt and defend the Church at every chance with this book.

You were put in this situation for a reason. Pray and study the true teachings of the Church.

We are all here for you. Do what you think is right but know that one of those other people may be lost and being lead down a wrong road with out you.

[/quote]

If you warn some one of their sin, and they still sin, it is their sin… but if you don’t warn them, you will need to answer for that. Take the Holy Spirit with you… it does not sound like He will be too busy because He is any part of that seminary.

Now, perhaps, you know just why you were in that class at that time.

God Bless


#8

Isaiah 45 foretells of the conversion of the ‘whole world’…
it was hardly Paul’s doing…

21" Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22" Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23" I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear
allegiance.

:slight_smile:


#9

[quote=Kev ><>]I’m taking a couse on discipleship at the local seminary. I’m not a seminarian, just a lay person. However, I’m really racking my brain trying to discern whether or not this class is true to the church’s teachings. Our text book; “How to Understand Church and Ministry in the United States” by Sr. Regina Cole; Page 47 of this books says “Jesus was about the revitalization of Judaism, not the establishment of a new religion. The church was established by the disciples who were all Jews until Paul opened the gates wide for non-Jews to enter…”

The end of this book states that the church’s options in the future are to ordain woman priests, allow married priests, or permit the deacons to preside over the Eucharist. That to do nothing would be the church’s biggest mistake.

I need some direction and assistance if I’m going to challenge the course material at our local seminary!!
[/quote]

Another prime example of the “progressive” movement in the Catholic Church. Ignore the Magisterium and the Deposit of Faith, not to mention the Bible (Peter, you are a rock and upon this rock I WILL FOUND MY CHURCH…).

Since these types want us to “Question Authority,” I say that it’s time that we began to “question” their so-called “authority” in these matters. I am more apt to embrace one’s theology when it is reflected in a life of humble submission and service, not when it espouses a certain agenda to change the Church and make it more “contemporary” (code word for LIBERAL).

Somebody ought to hit Sr. Regina over the head with a folk guitar and do us all a favor. Jeesh! :smiley:


#10

This is nothing more than tired, old, feminist/dissident heresy and you need nothing more that a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Magesterial teaching) to combat it.
Holy Orders, # 1536 - 1587 Especially 1578

The Church # 753 - 801

Valid Eucharist # 1411

You also might want to do a little search and compare the number of seminarians in traditional seminaries or for priestly orders that are faithful to the Magesterium and those in less than faithful dioceses or orders. You will find that, at the faithful seminaries and orders, young men are knocking down the doors. At the dissident places, the search for men is few and far between.

If the instructor tries to play hardballl, whip out a copy of JPII’s Apostolic Letter ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS, which you can get from the Vatican web site.

For future reference, always start with the CCC, then go to the
Vatican. You can’t lose.
STAY AND FIGHT! It’s your duty as a baptized Catholic. You can reference the above information if you have to take the problem to the seminary director or the ordinary of the diocese. They can’t dispute it, even if they don’t like it.


#11

Interestingly enough, one of the other students had a copy of the CCC with her and we looked up the definition of purgatory - because Regina Cole states that purgatory is a metaphor and not a place. We confronted the teacher of the class with the CCC definition and we were told that the CCC was written for the bishops of the Catholic church and that there will be a new copy coming out for the laity, so the implication was - please don’t quote from the CCC because it was not written to be read by us!

I like the idea about bringing up the magisterium(sp?) !! I will give that a try.

Thanks,

Kevin

<>


#12

[quote=Tibbar]Another prime example of the “progressive” movement in the Catholic Church. Ignore the Magisterium and the Deposit of Faith, not to mention the Bible (Peter, you are a rock and upon this rock I WILL FOUND MY CHURCH…).

Since these types want us to “Question Authority,” I say that it’s time that we began to “question” their so-called “authority” in these matters. I am more apt to embrace one’s theology when it is reflected in a life of humble submission and service, not when it espouses a certain agenda to change the Church and make it more “contemporary” (code word for LIBERAL).

Somebody ought to hit Sr. Regina over the head with a folk guitar and do us all a favor. Jeesh! :smiley:
[/quote]

Thanks! I’ve quoted the same Biblical quote from Jesus in regards to Peter in my homework assignment for tonight! You better believe that I will be expressing this during our class discussions as well.

<>


#13

[quote=Kev ><>] We confronted the teacher of the class with the CCC definition and we were told that the CCC was written for the bishops of the Catholic church and that there will be a new copy coming out for the laity, so the implication was - please don’t quote from the CCC because it was not written to be read by us!

<>
[/quote]

This is INSANELY insulting. God’s truth is published in the CCC according to the promise to Peter. The Bishops have a charism for teaching and the CCC does that in PLAIN english.

zowie. I will pray for you. Keep up the fight!
Sounds like a fox is in the henhouse. Get written responses when you can. Document and then let the local bishop know.


#14

[quote=Strider]This is nothing more than tired, old, feminist/dissident heresy and you need nothing more that a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Magesterial teaching) to combat it.
Holy Orders, # 1536 - 1587 Especially 1578

The Church # 753 - 801

Valid Eucharist # 1411

You also might want to do a little search and compare the number of seminarians in traditional seminaries or for priestly orders that are faithful to the Magesterium and those in less than faithful dioceses or orders. You will find that, at the faithful seminaries and orders, young men are knocking down the doors. At the dissident places, the search for men is few and far between.

If the instructor tries to play hardballl, whip out a copy of JPII’s Apostolic Letter ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS, which you can get from the Vatican web site.

For future reference, always start with the CCC, then go to the
Vatican. You can’t lose.
STAY AND FIGHT! It’s your duty as a baptized Catholic. You can reference the above information if you have to take the problem to the seminary director or the ordinary of the diocese. They can’t dispute it, even if they don’t like it.
[/quote]

Thank you for the resources. A few of the students and I have questioned the professor on comments in the book such as “Catholics remain Catholics because they like being Catholic. They like ritual and ceremonies, they like blessings…bringing home palm on Palm Sunday…having smudges of ashes from those palms on their foreheads on the next Ash Wednesday…” and “Catholics are a bunch of traditioning people” “Tradition is not some static possession that one gereation passes on to the next, untouched and unchanged…it is more like family myths and stories that are passed on from generation to generation, each one enriching and fortifying the original. ** The pracitices, disciplines, doctrines, and dogmas that define the Catholic Church today were not known in their present form by earlier Christians.”**

We questioned the professor and she said that she doesn’t see any problem with those statements…that she doesn’t read it the wrong way…that Sr. Regina Cole is an outstanding Catholic!

Doh! I don’t want a confontation but how can you accept this?


#15

Jesus did not come to end the Jewish religion, He came to fullfill it. Catholicism is the fullfillment of Judeism.

Your looking at it wrong. One Church didn’t end and the other startup. It is the same Church fullfilled and open to all. We say Jesus founded the Church but in reality He fullfilled its promise.

Jesus established the Catholic Church in 33 A.D., not by proclomation, but by authority and example and in fullfillment of Scripture.

In the OT the Jews were the chosen people. In the NT the Catholics are His chosen people.

Don’t think of it as two Churches. Think of it as one Church fullfilled.
I hope my quick use of English was clear on a complex point.:hmmm:


#16

Actually the authors name of the book in question is Sr. Regina Coll, not “Cole”. She’s been a proponent of women’s ordination into the priesthood for years. Believe it or not, she is (was?) a professor at of all places Notre Dame.

Here is an article from the “The Observer”, the student newspaper at Notre Dame:

nd.edu/~observer/11292000/News/0.html

It is really quite frightening how much this “progressive” mindset has infiltrated the Church. Your teacher is either supportive of this mindset or incredibly misinformed. I’m guessing the former.


#17

[quote=Kev ><>]Thank you for the resources. A few of the students and I have questioned the professor on comments in the book such as “Catholics remain Catholics because they like being Catholic. They like ritual and ceremonies, they like blessings…bringing home palm on Palm Sunday…having smudges of ashes from those palms on their foreheads on the next Ash Wednesday…” and “Catholics are a bunch of traditioning people” “Tradition is not some static possession that one gereation passes on to the next, untouched and unchanged…it is more like family myths and stories that are passed on from generation to generation, each one enriching and fortifying the original. ** The pracitices, disciplines, doctrines, and dogmas that define the Catholic Church today were not known in their present form by earlier Christians.”**

We questioned the professor and she said that she doesn’t see any problem with those statements…that she doesn’t read it the wrong way…that Sr. Regina Cole is an outstanding Catholic!

Doh! I don’t want a confontation but how can you accept this?
[/quote]

Those quotes from the text are so typically juvenile, that’s what you get from this group.
Look in the CCC under Tradition and show it to your professor. It sounds like you need to bring a softcover copy of the CCC to class every day.
Don’t let her get aweay with this puerile heresy. Maybe she’ll even learn something from YOU!


#18

[quote=John Joseph]Actually her name is Sr. Regina Coll, not “Cole”. She’s been a proponent of women’s ordination into the priesthood for years. Believe it or not, she is (was?) a professor at of all places Notre Dame.
[/quote]

ND of all places, huh? I never would have thought that ND would employ dissidents. After all, their theology department is headed by Father Richard McBrien! :rolleyes:

Hopefully the seminary in question is near the top of the list for the current house-cleaning inspections!

Good luck, Kev. Our prayers are with you.


#19

The author’s name is Regina Coll, not Cole. Sorry for the misinformation. I don’t care if the laity wants to work for change, but don’t promote your agenda in a class on discipleship!

Here is the end comment from my homework, which I will be turning in tonight.

Conscience and authority; the idea that we should express dissent from the church in regards to non infallible teachings. I am surprised to see such statements in a course on discipleship. Disciple – “follower”, “believer”, “supporter”, “devotee”, “adherent”…

I wonder if the teacher will fail me! Wouldn’t that be a hoot? I’ll tell you one thing, if this is what was being taught in RCIA I never would have converted to the Catholic faith…isn’t that something?

…maybe I’ll add that to my homework…

Peace,

Kevin

<>


#20

[quote=John Joseph]Actually the authors name of the book in question is Sr. Regina Coll, not “Cole”. She’s been a proponent of women’s ordination into the priesthood for years. Believe it or not, she is (was?) a professor at of all places Notre Dame.

Here is an article from the “The Observer”, the student newspaper at Notre Dame:

nd.edu/~observer/11292000/News/0.html

It is really quite frightening how much this “progressive” mindset has infiltrated the Church. Your teacher is either supportive of this mindset or incredibly misinformed. I’m guessing the former.
[/quote]

Thanks John. I’m printing this out and taking it to class tonight!!

Kevin

<>


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.