Jesus did not have all the criteria for messiah check out this web site and decide for yourself


#1

Hw do I defend these questions. as charitable as possible because my Jewish Aunt sent me this web page. And I want to be able to share my faith with her.

jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general_messiah-criteria02.html


#2

Well, right off the top, what is this ‘must have a biological father’ jazz?

First, isn’t Judaism matriarchical in nature? So I had always thought. . .

Second, where does it say in Jewish scripture that the Messiah must have a biological father? Because–correct me if I’m wrong – did not the first man have no ‘biological father’? Adam is the founder of the human race yet HE had no ‘biological father’ and HE was the one who sinned.

Nope, it sounds to me like this is the typical ‘revisionism’ argument.


#3

#4

Both Matthew 1 and Luke 3 contain genealogies of Jesus. But there is one problem. They are different. Luke’s Genealogy starts at Adam and goes to David. Matthew’s Genealogy starts at Abraham and goes to David. When the genealogies arrive at David, they split with David’s sons: Nathan (Mary’s side) and Solomon (Joseph’s side).

Part of the answer also lies in the fact that it is Joseph who gives Jesus his name. In the Jewish custom of the time, if a woman’s husband named her child, he acknowledged him as his own, regardless of natural parentage.

It is highly probable that Mary was also of the Royal House of David because as it was from there the Messiah was expected to come, the priests would have wanted the blood lines kept pure.


#5

how do they know they’re interpreting the prophecies correctly?
its easy to say “this means this” but in reality, it might actually mean “that” rather than “this” :slight_smile:


#6

There are many places of adoption refered to in the OT. Joseph adopted Jesus. I doubt if biological father is really there could be but I will bet its not.

The rest of it is interpretation. We know that the Messiah was expected to be military leader through misinterpretation.

and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them

What they don’t understand is that Jesus is the sanctuary.:shrug:


#7

If Jesus isn’t Jewish, then what is He?[/FONT]
To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.
An adopted person can become a FULL member of the tribe of Judah, with the same rights and privileges as a biological family member, in full accordance with the Torah.
He must …2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)This is more about Peter than Christ, but both can apply. The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!Matthew has Christ descending from David through Solomon, while Luke has him descending from David through Nathan. This is not odd. David had more than one son, and a later individual can be descended from more than one of them.http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9712chap.asp
He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -“And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)The page forgets to mention Isaiah 11:1.
There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch shall grow out of his roots.

Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?

The text doesn’t say they will all live in Israel, it says that the Messiah will gather them and return them. Apocalyptic prophetic imagery can involve more than one time period.
[size=][FONT=“Arial”]He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - “…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them…” (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy! [/size][/FONT]
Jesus rebuilt “This Temple” in three days, meaning His Body. We still have sanctuaries and Tabernacles and we become temples after we partake of the Toda sacrifice.
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - “…they shall beat their swords…” (Micah 4:3
Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?This verse is not about the world. But take a look at Micah 5:2

But you, O Bethlehem Eph’rathah,
who are little to be among the clans of Judah,
from you shall come forth for me
one who is to be ruler in Israel,
whose origin is from of old,
from ancient days.

Why did Herod want Jesus dead upon hearing this verse? Was Herod misinformed by the Jewish scripture scholars of the time?
He will rule…(Ezekiel 37:24)
Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.

This is just a plain falsehood. No true Christian leader would ever instruct anyone to disobey the commandments. I’m sorry, but the statement shows bigotry.


#8

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d -"… shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
…All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

Isaiah 66 refers to after the Second Coming, so there are lots of scriptures like this that are apocalyptic in nature. Jews will lump “first and second coming” scriptures together

If an individual fails…Certainly NOT Jesus.
Certainly Jesus, and sometimes both Jesus and Peter. God promises an everlasting covenant, yet the Temple was destroyed. All records of priestly lineage was destroyed. Therefore God cannot be referring to an old covenant that would be everlasting, but a new covenant.

It is impossible to respond line by line to this web page as it requires way too much text to do it right, and it is an unfair imposition to ask others to do so much research for you on a forum. Be more specific with your question.

I wouldn’t use scripture arguments to debate with relatives, but the writings of Edith Stien, a holocaust victim and Jewish Catholic. Her writings obviously influenced Pope John Paul II in his encyclicals and letters on women.
You will get much further with your aunt with that than any scriptual arguments. http://geocities.com/baltimorecarmel/stein/index.html

Order this book for your aunt
Life in a Jewish Family: Her Unfinished Autobiographical Account (Paperback)

The Jewish Heritage of the Catholic Church ourgardenofcarmel.org/marty.html


#9

I don’t think the divine conception and virgin birth of Jesus and Joseph being the biological father of Jesus are mutually exclusive.


#10

Jews for Judaism is well known for fudging their arguments.

They have been replied to by,

Answering Jewish Objections by Michael L. Brown, now in four volumes.

and by,

Jesus Ben Joseph by Walter Riggans

Yeshua Ben David by Walter Riggans

christianbook.com/Christian/Books/easy_find?Ntk=keywords&Ntt=Michael+L.+Brown&action=Search&N=0&Ne=0&event=ESRCN&nav_search=1&cms=1&Go.x=13&Go.y=10

:thumbsup:

Does anyone know if Hebrew Catholics have published any responses as of yet?


#11

They would also know that we believe that most of those prophecies they site will be fulfilled at Jesus second coming.

They also know if one has a Jewish Mother, they are considered to be Jewish.


#12

#13

Do they have great patience?

Is it 4000 years or so back to Abraham and all those characters. No messiah yet, the Temple is gone for thousands of years, no Scribes or Pharasees anymore, no sacrifice, and so on…:shrug:


#14

This is not new. In fact all of the positions and arguments presented on this web site first originated about, hmm, let me think, 2000 years ago. This guy named Caiaphus really promoted these same ideas. In fact he even got his buddy a Roman named Pontius, to help get rid of the Guy who was causing problems of this nature.

But this Guy’s followers kept on saying the same stuff. Later, this other guy named Gameliel said if whet they said was false, their movement would disappear. If what they said was true, God would not let it ever die. That was 2000 years ago. I think we all know the rest of the story.


#15

and the beauty is that the sacrifices in the Temple will take place again and the nations that mocked and sinned against Israel will be in shock on that day and will come to the children of Israel asking to go with them.

… 13And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong

23Thus saith the LORD of hosts; **In those days **it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

24 " 'My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever /COLOR]

Malachi 4
The Day of the LORD
1 "Surely the day is coming;… 4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
biblegateway.com


#16

The house of Judah shall be a blessing to the heathen now instead of a curse then.
Where now is the great heathen population pressing around the house of Judah?
Nowhere to be seen.
They are followers of the Jewish promise, the Messiah. And it has indeed been a great blessing to the heathen from God through the house of Judah.

*The sacrifice has already been resumed, it is the one pure sacrifice.

I’m not being narky, Zahava, but His house of David has already provided the One Shepherd, the followers follow His Laws and Decrees, He made His covenant with them, and placed His sanctuary amongst them, and He dwells with them forever.


#17

There is NO room for speculation of a biological father for Jesus.

Jesus Christ:

Fully Human, Fully Divine

anything stated to the contrary is false.


#18

#19

Each member of God’s people has been made a member of the “holy priesthood” of the Church (see 1 Peter 2:4-5,9; Revelation 1:6) as Israel was once called “a kingdom of priests” (see Exodus 19:6)

Each of us is called to “offer spiritual sacrifices” (see 1 Peter 2:4-5).

As Christ offered himself on the cross, we are called to offer our own bodies, our own lives in the Mass. United to Christ in baptism, we share in his priesthood. With him, we also offer ourselves as a sacrifice.

“I urge you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship” (see Romans 12:1).

And in this spiritual worship we are united with all Christians everywhere who celebrate the same sacrament. We are also united with all the saints in heaven - all Christians, across time, sharing in one perfect sacrifice.

In fact, the Mass is heaven on earth, not figuratively but literally. That will be the subject of the next lesson: the surprising, even astonishing fact that, wherever Mass is being celebrated, heaven is there right now.

Worship in the New Jerusalem
With the Angels and Saints

John is invited to “come up here” (see Revelation 4:1). And we are invited to come up to heaven, as well – to lift up our hearts - at the beginning of our Liturgy of the Eucharist.

When we lift up our hearts, we are asked to sing with the angels and saints.

This is not simply a fine expression of sentiment. As with everything else in the Mass, there is a “sacramental realism” at work here.

At this point in the Mass, we are in a mysterious way joining our song to the song that John – and the prophet Isaiah before him – heard in heaven: “Holy, holy, holy . . .” (see Revelation 4:8; Isaiah 6:3).

The second part of our song ("Blessed is he . . . ") is taken from the Psalm that pilgrims to Jerusalem would sing at Passover. It was also the psalm that was sung upon Christ’s triumphal entry to Jerusalem (see Mark 11:10; Psalm 118:26).

The biblical words give us clues to what’s going on in the Mass. We have gathered around the altar – not only an earthly altar, but a heavenly altar as well. We have made our way to Mount Zion, the new and heavenly Jerusalem.

This is what John saw – “the Lamb standing on Mount Zion” (see Revelation 14:1).

The Letter to the Hebrews (see Hebrews 12:22-24) likewise speaks of the Eucharistic celebration on earth as entrance into and participation in the heavenly liturgy in the new Jerusalem.

In the Mass, says Hebrews, we approach “Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.” There, we join “countless angels” and “the assembly of the firstborn” and Jesus, “mediator of the new covenant and the sprinkled blood” in a “festal gathering” or feast.

These lines are filled with biblical allusions and references. It is interesting to note that the word translated “assembly” is the Greek word ekklesia – the word for “church.”

And notice the similarities between Hebrews’ description of the Mass and John’s Revelation. Both see a new Jerusalem, a new Zion, the dwelling place of the Lord (see Psalm 132:13-14). Both see angels and Jesus, the Lamb whose blood takes away the sin of the world. And both see a “feast” and a gathering of “firstborn” or “firstfruits” of those who believe in Jesus (see Revelation 14:4). And both see in this feast in the temple of heaven a sign of the new covenant wrought in the blood of Jesus (see Revelation 11:19)

What these Scriptures show us is that the Mass is the summit of salvation history told in Scripture.

And this is the same thing that the prayers of the Mass tell us.


#20

Odell, the children of Israel still have the Kohanim – and there is a gathering of these Kohanim and Levites on Monday, July 16 - Sessions at the Kohen-Levi Conference at HaKotel Hall in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City. 11 AM - 7 PM, payment of 50 shekels at the door.
cohen-levi.org/the_tribe/timeline_of_kohanim_and_levites.htm

israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123014

Being that the 2nd Temple has been destroyed and the Jewish people are looking for the redemption of the Messiah to gather us to Israel when the 3rd Temple will forever stand as G-d’s Word states and cannot be changed, we now offer the sacrifices of praise from our lips. Hosea 14

and don’t forget that the nations will ask the Jews to “take us with you”


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