Is it a church of people or a building or both? And what about Jesus being the word of God and scriptures and how this ties in with the healine?
Not sure what your point is , however I will try to give an answer , the church as you have stated was founded by Christ , and yes Jesus is the unwritten word , however, the Holy Spirit did author the Holy Scriptures using human pen men by telling them what to write.
It’s true that Christ gave us His Church, but also God did give us a Book.
When I read titles like this, I ask Catholics what Jesus meant when He went from saying “Not one dot, not one iota” to “My words will never pass away.”? What does Jesus mean when He says His words will never pass away? Do we have any words of Jesus outside of the Bible?
So it’s clear God meant to create a Holy Book for us even by Christ’s own words.
The Bible did come from the church however. 1st Timothy 3:15 says the church is the pillar of truth. Paul writes several times that we are to hold fast to the traditions that have been passed down to us.
For at least the first 300+ years, there was no official canon. It was not till the latter part of the 4th century that the Bible as we know it was created. By the very church that is the supposed whore of Babylon.
So, what did the first Christians rely on? They did not have pocket bibles and even if they did, most of them did not know how to read.
I was once told by a baptist that the King James Version of the Bible was the only true word of God and anything apart from that, is not from God. I then asked to show me where it says that. To which he frustratingly said it does not say that in there. So,I said that is interesting. So, what you claim is not written in there, and you just said if it is not written in there, that it is NOT from God. So I asked, what am now to conclude?
The KJV was not written until 1611, and that version did include the 7 books of the deuterocanonicals. They were later taken out.
We see in the Book of Acts how the Church has been the authority through Christ to set dogma. If the Church was indeed bound by scripture, then by what authority were they able to set dogma? Why was the church allowed to do that?
Did the church cease to have authority upon he death of the disciples? Then by what authority did Paul (not one of the twelve) have to write church doctrine and be the author of nearly 75% of the New Testament?
Which one of the 50,000 versions is the “true one?” These are basically rhetorical questions. I just get confused about certain claims or proclamations and how it fits with historical events.
And the very next chapter says that in later times some will depart from the faith, forbidding marriage and require abstinence from foods. What’s your point?
Why do you think that it’s the whore of babylon?
Probably their leaders I would assume.
Right. And there’s a Catholic Church in South America that had a “clown mass”. What’s your point?
I think that there are threads about this already.
Interestingly enough, even when the Church gathered in the chapter you’re talking about there are proclamations made that would be rather confusing had Paul not explained them in his letters. “Strangled food” and whatnot.
Christians believe that Paul is an Apostle.
Sorry, I didn’t realize they were rhetorical as I was responding.
“Church” is more properly translated “out-called ones” or as we may say “assembly.” The people are the church. No one that I know of with a conservative orthodox view within the RCC or protestant denominations disputes the fact that the Bible is the word of God, that it was inspired by God. There isn’t a “versus” here. God assembles His own people, and He gave us His scripture.
Jesus is not just the unwritten word, he is the Word of God. That is so much more than the written word, but it includes the written word.
Jesus is God’s full and final revelation of himself. All things come from him and through him.
So then, we must know Jesus. Who is Jesus? He is God made flesh. This fundamental truth frequently escapes us. God is made human flesh. God is incarnate.
God, in his infinite love, was not content to “throw the book” at us, he entered the human condition in every way (but sin). Think about the implications and consequences of the incarnation.
Jesus Christ was born to a human mother, walked the earth, associated with others and gave to them his mission, then he died, and rose, and ascended.
So how did God reveal himself to the fullest? As a man who founded a real association with other human beings, AKA Church.
The Church is a real thing, founded by Christ in real time, with real human beings, who have real flesh. Scripture is the “story” of Jesus Christ, passed on by human beings through His Spirit.
There was no written NT when Christ walked the earth. But the NT was very alive in the person of Christ. First is a person, Jesus Christ, then a New Testament that his Church passed on to us. That Testament serves the person of Christ, and is inseparable from him, who is inseparable from the community he founded.
It is an absurdity to say the written word takes primacy over the authority of the Church. It makes no sense, cause the written word cannot exist without the Church. :shrug:
I think it is important to understanding the correct definition and usage of the word ‘church’.
There are basically (and one could break them down further) 3 English definitions of the word church.
- A building or structure
- An assembly or congregation
- The hierarchy of clergy of a Christian organization.
In Holy Scripture, the word we define as ‘church’ is the Greek word ‘ekklesia’ (ek-klay-see’-ah). The definition of ekklesia is:
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
We run into a problem when we start using a different definition of the word used to define the Greek word then what the original word means. Ok, let me (hopefully) explain it better.
The definition of the Greek word ‘ekklesia’, is a congregation, an essembly, a church. Knowing that there are different English definitions of the word ‘church’, we have to ensure we use the correct one, which for the word ‘ekklesia’ would be an assembly or congregation. We cannot use a different definition of the word ‘church’. So defining the word ‘church’ as a building or as a hierarchy is not correct in this context. It doesn’t match the definition of the original Greek word.
So when Jesus says He will build His ‘church’ (ekklesia), we have to understand the correct definition. As we know, the Greek word ekklesia means congregation, assembly. If it were to mean a building or an institution different Greek words would have been used.
I don’t mean to start an argument, but I think this is something that gets often overlooked.
Be careful in how you throw around this reference. Catholic requirements for unmarried priests in the Latin rite is a reflection of the teachings of Jesus and Paul. And Jesus Himself taught us about WHEN we were fasting.
The point is that an individual reading the Scriptures by themselves, and without the authority of the Church, will fall into error at some point and teach things that are wrong.
Why do you think that it’s the whore of babylon?
He doesn’t, but many evangelicals do. He used the word “supposed” in there.
Words are sometimes inadequate. They can convey meaning, but cannot convey the full reality of who Christ is, and who the Church is, and what it is.
While a strict translation of the Greek might yield “assembly”, that assembly is instituted. We should not believe that one word excludes another. The Church is an established reality. It is “caused to stand” in the reality of human existence by Christ. It is not amorphous.
Amorphous would be a congregation without form. But, again, look at the central truth of our faith, the Incarnation.
Christianity cannot be a formless gathering without institution, because the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ directly contradicts that notion.
He is God made flesh, who gives his mission in a real way to a real people, a body, who are inseparable from the Head.
I don’t need a church to tell me what JESUS and Paul said. It is written down. Translation may be different, but His Words endure forever. We have different Bibles, you and i. That is not at all what Paul said. Look it up, please, and tell me what Paul says in your versions. That is a challenge for all. Thank you and GOD bless.
So then your bible landed in your lap out of the sky?
If not, how did it come to you?
I want to joke about the clown mass, but is it smart to clown around with worship? Oops.
Paul certainly was an apostle. Strangled food and celibacy explained. Amen brother .
Christianity cannot be an individualist faith. There is no person alive who conceived the faith by his own self. The faith was conceived in the womb of a woman, in the person of Christ. If we do not stand on our own, who do we stand on? The Christian faith is meaningless outside the context of the community founded by Christ.
So, if you do not depend on the Church for the written word, where did you receive it from? Even if you cannot bring yourself to say the word “Catholic”, the question remains:
Where did your bible come from?
One was a gift some 40 :eek: yrs ago from my folks when I accepted JESUS as Savior. The others I either bought or found or were given to me.
So when you go to church on Sunday and the pastor reads from scripture and then preaches a sermon about it, that’s not a church telling you what that scripture means?
That’s funny but it really isn’t an answer, is it.
So you do admit you depend on others for your bible?
At least, I hear you saying you depend on others for the physical possession of your bible.
Me too. We have something in common. It was given to me by others, explained by others, translated by others. It originated with others.
So it’s great that you have a sense that your bible came from others. What about a little deeper question:
Where did your parents get it from? We can assume they did not write it.
We can see the obvious issue as the question easily reduces itself to Jesus speaking and living with his disciples 2000 years ago, at a time when the written word did not yet exist.
Others with :eek:…authority.
But Justin Martyr tells us that they used letters from the apostles to read and expound on during their services. How exciting it must have been for them to hear words from the apostles.
One of the answers to this question goes like this:
“Paul and Peter and Mark and Luke etc…wrote it. No Church was required.”
But that is not an answer.
None of them wrote the whole thing. The gospels were written at different times far removed from the events. None of them wrote at the same time in the same place. Most of them never even met Jesus. The question remains, where did the written word come from?
All of them lived in community with others and depended on others. Word of mouth,. Authoritative word of mouth. (we can debate Paul’s visions and travelogue and Revelations). Every one of them, without exception, heardand lived the word first, before picking up the pen.
None of them are God, they are human beings subject to others.
It is easily as credible to say that the first Christian campfires are as authoritative as the written word which came out of them.